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Safer Tomorrow Podcast
The Safer Tomorrow Podcast aims to reduce crime and violence today by raising awareness about solutions while providing practical tips, strategies and stories that inspire and empower change makers and peace seekers (regular citizens) to effect change.
As someone who has conducted research in this area, Dr. Jo is convicted about civil society's role in the crime problem and our responsibility to be part of the solution. Change is possible, and so Safer Tomorrow provides actionable and doable steps, everyone can participate in to create a safer, more compassionate, and equitable world.
When a crime is committed, trust is broken, the person who committed the crime has to prove themselves to earn trust.
But it's not just up to them. We must rethink the way we categorize people who make poor decisions and everything we think we know about them, their story, and their future. We must rebuild broken possibilities and connections and provide new potential. And we must reach out to become the community that helps others walk a healed path.
It may push us out of our comfort zones, but it's within our capacity.
Let's take action and create positive change together.
Safer Tomorrow Podcast
Supporting Incarcerated and Formerly Incarcerated Jamaican Citizens| Maria Carla Gullotta | Stand Up for Jamaica
As your guide on the complex path of human rights and reform, I, Dr. Jo, welcome the insightful Maria Carla Gullotta of Stand Up For Jamaica to the microphone. Immerse yourself in Maria's personal odyssey from the vibrant landscapes of Italy to the gritty frontlines of change in Jamaica, where reggae's rhythm beats as the soundtrack to her mission. Together, we unravel the tapestry of systemic challenges and the vital role of NGOs in orchestrating a symphony of support for those ensnared in the penal system. We don't just talk shop; we paint the vivid picture of a humanity-centered approach that sings a tune of hope over despair.
The narrative deepens with a solemn look at the shadows cast by prison walls on women and their families, where bright stories of academic achievements clash with the oppressive silence of societal exclusion post-release. Our conversation winds through the harrowing corridors of maternal worries and severed family bonds, yet finds solace in the resilience and tenacity of souls bucking the odds to rewrite their stars. In the face of layoffs and COVID-19's relentless march, we meet the iron-willed individuals striving to stitch their lives back into the fabric of a society that too often turns a blind eye.
Curtains draw on the often-overlooked sentinels of the correctional realm—officers who bear the brunt of a system grappling with fairness and recognition. Maria and I dissect the web of support that must envelop both guardians and the guarded, advocating for a mercy-infused approach to juvenile justice. Each tale spun and each challenge discussed amplifies the clarion call for communal hands to raise the torch of systemic change, illuminating the path from cell blocks to community blocks with the unwavering belief in redemption.
Want to hear from a veteran who has worked with incarcerated and formerly incarcerated persons for decades. Today, we have Executive Director for Jamaica, maria Carla Collato, who will share her experiences on working with incarcerated and formerly incarcerated persons here in Jamaica. Thank you, hello, and welcome to Safer Tomorrow podcast, your resource for strategies for crime and violence reduction and making and creating more peaceful societies. I'm Dr Jo. I'm a criminal justice researcher and community social work educator, and I'm really passionate about mobilizing and collating strategies for crime and violence reduction, particularly for my nation, jamaica.
Speaker 1:Today we have Maria Carla Golota. She is the executive director of Stand Up For Jamaica. She is a human rights activist and she has done so much work in the area of rehabilitation and reintegration, and so I'm really looking forward to hearing and having just this discussion with her to find out more about what her organization has done regarding reintegration and rehabilitation, and some of what she believes we need to do as a society and some of the lessons that we would learn from this society. The Jamaican society could perhaps be applied regionally and internationally, so welcome, ms Golotto program and I'm very glad for you are doing also a tremendous work.
Speaker 2:So I think we are on the same page, so we can talk about it tomorrow and today and forever, because you see, what happened today should be the start of something which is developing in the future. So that's why I mentioned tomorrow and forever, because talking about things means also try to implement that.
Speaker 1:Exactly exactly, and thank you. And that's what I really like about your approach. I mean, I often see you in the newspaper. You are always speaking. Whenever there is a situation, particularly regarding incarcerated persons, you are there as well as Stand Up for Jamaica. So can you tell?
Speaker 2:us. That's why they call me the Pringles lady, right.
Speaker 1:Yes. So if you could tell us just a little bit about your own journey. Like you have an accent, so can you tell my listeners how did you get here? How did you start your organization? How did you become involved in this work?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a long story. Originally I'm Italian. I was born in Rome, then I relocated in Jamaica 33 years ago, but I still have a kind of Italian accent. I will bring it to the grave, I think.
Speaker 2:It was a choice due to the fact that I was working at that time on two matters One, human rights, because I was working for Amnesty International in Italy, and then, in the same time, I was working with Reggae production, which was selling festivals, shows, artists from Jamaica in Europe. So I was traveling up and down and I had the feeling that reggae is not a stupid music. It's a music which speaks not only to the body but also to the soul, and the message from reggae was a powerful one is a powerful one.
Speaker 1:Therefore, when in my job as agency which was selling Jamaican artists. I was asking reggae festivals to endorse Jamaica.
Speaker 2:Not only buy, but give back, because they were making some serious money. There are some European festivals which gather 200,000 people. So my idea and my proposal to them is okay, you have a business, but why don't you honor the message of reggae to give back something to Jamaica? That was also motivated by the fact that I was not very happy with Amnesty because they were asking me to become the coordinator for Jamaica. I did it for a little while and Amnesty is very powerful in advocating, but there is nothing on the grounds. So just to make an example, if I have a campaign against violence on women, then you have to have also instrument to help the women which are in need, not only campaign. So we were campaigning, women were coming to me and I have to tell her to go somewhere else. So I thought that is not what I wanted to do and I decided to create Stand Up for Jamaica, which was born initially as a sort of reggae commitment. As I could the interventions, the activities, the projects from Stand Up and therefore I was in need of different structures. So we got formalized as a charity, we have a board of directors and we keep Europe in the back burner hoping to receive funds, which, honestly, are less and less, because my links with reggae ended where I realized that I could not do the two things at the same time. So I decided to choose the human rights and abandon reg music.
Speaker 2:Stand up is doing two things advocacy, because we want to see and we need to see changes. So when we see something that we would love to see dealt with in a different way, we advocate. And we also are part of a network with other NGOs, such as Jamaican for Justice, woman Inc. Women Media Watch, cvc. Name them, because we know that, being all together, we are more able to achieve results. So each one of us decided to choose some grounds to be more professional. Right, because we cannot deal with everything. We cannot deal with police brutality, children brutality, women brutality, mentally ill, incarcerated people, lgbtq community doing a good job. So the idea was that each one of us was taking a sort of portfolio and then we communicate and then we decide all together about a couple of matters that are a priority for us and there will be all together on them. So that was the beginning, and then Stand Up has been developing an amount of projects.
Speaker 2:Actually, we have several of them. The biggest one and the one which most of the people know is at correctional services, which is a polite way to describe prisons. So we work in the prisons with the idea of rehabilitation. It has been a choice which has been difficult because it's one of the less popular matters among people. People think that if somebody has been in conflict with the law, has made something wrong, he should be punished, which is obvious. Yeah, he should be punished because he did something wrong. But there is punishment and punishment. So the punishment that you throw away the key and lock them up and forget about them is generating more violence.
Speaker 2:There is a target of more than 4,000 people among men, women and a lot of juveniles. Remember, there are a lot of juveniles which are incarcerated. If you use the serving time to produce changes and to avoid to send back to society criminals, I think it's a very useful job. Those people, most of the people which are incarcerated are not serving time as building time. Right, that is the famous rehabilitation.
Speaker 2:So, into the various institutions we have schools, because most of them are totally literate. Then we have laboratories where they learn a professional skill and get a diploma laboratories where they learn a professional skill and get a diploma. And then obviously we have other activities, such as counselling, psychological support. That is due to the fact that there is quite an amount of people which have done something wrong because they totally lost control or they were drunk, or they were red or they were upset. But that is a damage to somebody else. You have to recognize that what you did was heavily wrong. So what we try to teach them is self-awareness, self-control, and try to avoid that they do it again. Uh, it's working quite well, I would say.
Speaker 1:So just before you head into. You know some of the successes and you know what your organization has been able to achieve. I want to just talk a little bit more about the experience for persons during incarceration. One of the things that I think is so important that you highlighted, and that I don't know if we remember all the time, is that we have quite a diverse population that goes into the correctional facilities. They don't all look the same. They don't all have the same experiences.
Speaker 1:They didn't commit the same crime, and you know, so everybody's on a spectrum. I guess I would first start with they don't all have the same experiences. They didn't commit the same crime, and you know, so everybody's on a spectrum. I guess I would first start with what would you say are some of the challenges that men, women and the juvenile, the young persons, experience that are different from each other.
Speaker 2:I'm happy for this question. Before I go there, I want to make a short list of the other activities that we have and then we focus on the prison. So, beside the correctional services, we have a project on gender-based violence, which means violence on women and domestic abuse. It is dramatic, we have hundreds of cases. Then we have a project for children in the care of the abuse. It is dramatic, we have hundreds of cases. Then we have a project for children in the care of the state and then we have a project on mental illness which is developing and I think is very important. And then we have a project on LGBTQ community, which are heavily discriminated due to the fact that it is illegal.
Speaker 2:Going back to the prisons now, instances, you are right, instances are different. You come in the right moment because we had a discussion and a meeting a few days ago, because I have various teams going into the prisons right, and there was a and I go every week because I want to remain on the grounds. I like it very much. We realized, for example, that in the last couple of years, the institution where there are the women has lower success at school, some lower success in some other activities. So we were wondering.
Speaker 1:Sorry, could you repeat that Women had lower successes at school?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Okay, yeah, and we were wondering, because I don't want to say that women don't have the same talents as men, right? So I decided to discuss with the two teams of psychologists which are going there and with the staff which is working there teachers and mediators what it was. And I went and I required a meeting with the, with the ladies and we, for example, realized that the level of stress that they have towards the destiny of their children is heavily interfering with their capability to focus.
Speaker 2:Basically, to say it in a very simple way, in that meeting they were keeping saying I don't know what happened to my child, maybe it's with my grandmother, maybe it's with the stepfather, maybe one month it's with the aunt. I'm not sure if he's going to school regularly. I'm not sure if he has the money school regularly. I'm not sure if he has the money to buy books and school bag and etc. Etc. So those forms of worries have been somehow affecting a lot of women which were admitting. We cannot think about doing school work when we keep wondering what happened to the children, and that is leading to the fact that they are able to meet with the children it's called family day a couple of times per year, which is horrible you know possibility to see the children once every couple of months.
Speaker 2:They would be reassured about what happened to them, how they grow, and also remember that the children are innocent victims of a situation where one of the parents, father or mother, are incarcerated because they lose any contacts with them. So we have been asking over and over to increase the family days. Well then, when we were campaigning for that, covid came, so there was no possibility. For one and a half years they couldn't see each other. We were trying to set some zoom meeting to see if they could do it, but it was technically a little difficult and I think that dcs was not fully understanding the value and the importance not to lose family ties. So that is and the importance not to lose family ties so that children would be embarrassed to say around that their father is in prison and so they try to avoid to talk to the father. And plus, when the father goes home, if the sentence is short he can go back to rebuild a relationship. But when they are incarcerated for 10, 15 years, they might leave a little child which is three years old and they come back home and the child is 18. And he didn't get any guidance from the father and he does not recognize him as a father but as an intruder in his life. So that is one of the major problem that they have. It is very sad, joanna, because we have people which are fully rehabilitated and that means that they have six subjects on CXC. They have a diploma with heart.
Speaker 2:We have a pilot project now which has been graduating at the University of the Caribbean the first six people, and we have 11 more which are now following the classes. Those six got a master, a university master, and all of them, the all of them, got it with the highest marks a, a class honor, etc. And our six were in a badge of 690 students. All the other ones were outside, at home, with their family, with their computers, with their support, et cetera. Our own had to study in an environment which is not very conducive, right, it's very difficult and they did so well. So when those people are leaving and there is quite an amount their expectations are higher. If you enter as a bad man and you leave as a bad man, you do not expect anything at all, right. But if you went along a long path of education efforts, commitment sacrifices, education efforts, commitment sacrifices, some of them. They were even financially contributing, trying to get the master right. And nobody wants you and every door slams on their face. What are they supposed to be doing? How they will survive? How they will survive, how they will pay their rent, how they will support their families? Somehow you push them back to commit another crime and become a real offender. We have been working with some of them, which were selected.
Speaker 2:For example, I remember a sad story, very sad. It was a lady. She came to prison completely illiterate, completely. She hardly could read. She achieved five subjects, she got a diploma in accounts. She got a diploma in accounts. She got a diploma in craft. She was producing some beautiful jewels, et cetera. When she went out she was struggling, struggling, struggling. She finally got a job in a call center After some time. They were very happy with that because we tried to monitor their professional inclusion. Then there, was.
Speaker 2:COVID monitor their professional inclusion. Right Then there was COVID. So the call center laid out several person, including her. A few weeks after they call her back and they told her that she was so excellent that she would have been reinstated in a better position. So she was overexcited because she had a better job and her professional skills were highly appreciated, Until one day the boss was asking for her police record. When she brought the police record, she was fired within five days. When she brought the police record, she was fired within five days. I mean, it is very difficult to judge somebody if you do not allow those which are willing to go back to society as better person.
Speaker 1:You don't give them a second chance and she was doing well in the in in that um job until she her she was doing so well and she was reintegrated and promoted to a better position so the only difference, the only thing that made the difference, is the knowledge. Nothing in her performance uh or her behaviour changed.
Speaker 2:It was the famous piece of paper, the police record, which has been somehow. She came to the office crying all her tears.
Speaker 1:It's such an interesting.
Speaker 2:I want to give an example. My office has employed most of them. Actually, in my main office, 99% of the people working there as project manager accountant database are ex-mates. I had a complaint with one and I had to dismiss him, but all the other ones are doing a very good job, very and plus, they know being coming from where they come from, they know the reality and instrumental to create a better understanding. All of my employees in there are ex inmates and I don't have any complaint. Yeah, because when I employ them I tell them I'm happy to take you in, but remember that the fact that you are an ex incarcerated person does not allow you not to be a professional pet. I will be patient, teach you, but I want a professional performance. I do it, Ms.
Speaker 1:Golazo. I mean, there's so many things that you have said that I want to just highlight and underscore. Said that I want to just highlight and underscore, um, starting with what you said last, you know, first of all, you're practicing what you're preaching you know, so you are actually enjoying a person. This is what you advocate for. This is what you were saying we must do, and you are doing it and you are doing it for the same time, joana, it's you.
Speaker 2:I cannot preach, and then I do something else and I don't follow what we are going to require to others, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then you're also modeling. What I think is also important, and that is when you hire them. It's not, oh, I hired a formerly incarcerated person, and so they have a free reign to do whatever it is you simple them to a professional standard and you are saying.
Speaker 1:OK, I know that this is a transition for you based on where you are coming from, but I'm going to be patient with you. I'm going to teach you, I'm going to mentor you, but I'm going to be patient with you, I'm going to teach you, I'm going to mentor you, and I think that's so important, because one of the things we don't always remember is that there is this transition period when persons come out from prison. That is a whole world unto itself and perhaps a bit later I'll ask you a little bit more about that. You know transitioning into society. You spoke about family relationships. You spoke about just working in an employment, a job environment. You know all of these things can, you know, have their own challenges where transition is concerned. However, you know just the approach that you're taking in expecting, having a high expectation from them, but recognizing there is a journey towards that is so important. And another thing was when you were speaking.
Speaker 2:Yes, but, joanna, the office needed to function properly. Yeah, because what we do is not very easy. We have problems every God Almighty day working on human rights Every day there is an episode. Every day there is an emergency. Rights every day there is an episode. Every day there is an emergency. Every day there is a drama. Every day there is somebody which is in a desperate situation. My staff need to be up to standards to deal with all of that. Yeah, I don't ask anybody to do more than what I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and and another point that you mentioned that I think is also so important is because, they're coming and because they've had some of these experiences before, they have embedded knowledge. They are, in a sense, experts in this area. So they're bringing their own knowledge based on their to the space, as well as the added education that they would have received while incarcerated and perhaps afterwards.
Speaker 2:We send some of them to a workshop Ex-Immates which was arranged by Jamaicans for Justice on access to justice. They were amazing. You know, I went to listen to them for half a day because I was curious, because all the other ones were upper class, and I sent these six and I said, jesus, let's see what they do, their intervention, their comments. They were so very much into it because they felt it on their own skin that everybody was clapping them and at the end they gave them a standing ovation for the contribution.
Speaker 1:So you know, yeah, and so this is so important because when persons leave prison, they are leaders. They can be, you can be leaders in society that help us, particularly in this area other areas as well, but particularly in this area of working with incarcerated persons, working with formerly incarcerated persons to provide some of the services that we need, and if we see them as leaders in this area, just as in that workshop, it will increase our respect for them.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah. So that's it. But there is also a very important thing you know that all the agencies from the government do not allow to employ ex-inmates. There was a case of one ex-inmate which was working in a courthouse I don't know he was an employee or something Until one judge one day recognized him as an ex-inmate because he was the judge which was conducing the trial, and he has been raised in hell and pretend for him to be dismissed. So this is something which is also it's a question I pose to you and whoever might listen to this program. We are talking about the need to do rehabilitation, fine.
Speaker 2:But, rehabilitation is linked to reintegration, because if you don't reintegrate, why you should rehabilitate? But once they're rehabilitated, they want to be reintegrated. On one side, the Minister of Security has a strong policy to consider rehabilitation almost mandatory, but then the Minister of Security does not employ anybody and he's making sure that no other agency, no other ministry, is employing anybody. So why do you preach about the importance of reintegration and then you don't offer a job? I'm looking also at the private sector. We had some interesting meetings with the private sector, which obviously discuss about the fact that crime is interfering with business, which is true. So I was listening for quite a long time and then I was asking them would you be able to give them a second chance? And they say oh, why? I said because it's the only way to prevent people to commit another crime. If you decided that you keep only complaining, I have a lot of sympathy with the difficulties that they might have, right, but if they do not jump in the arena and decide, okay, let's see. So I was drafting a proposal for them which was just take a few at the beginning and we will somehow guarantee for them and put them in probation for six months.
Speaker 2:At the end of six months you evaluate professional behavior and behavior. Both they're up to standards. They behave well. You give them a job. They are not up to standards, they don't behave the way they're supposed to behave. You just dismiss them. It is a way to give an opportunity, but also you are cautious not to go too far. Without solid, solid foundations, they will say, oh, very interesting. Nothing happened. Only, mr Mitchell you remember Howard Mitchell, which was the previous PSJ president, ceo. He took I think eight, nine, but then he dismissed himself and nothing happened.
Speaker 1:I have a question for you, ms Galato, though, and you mentioned that you have a lot of sympathy for private sector, and I know you know. I guess one of the concerns could perhaps be how do I know? So, I hear you, ms Galata, but how do I know that when I am onboarding a formerly incarcerated person, that they won't commit fraud, that they won't come and kill me if I let them go, that they won't create trouble with my staff? I think this is one of as I talk to persons and I work it through in my own mind. You know how do we reconcile and answer these questions so that we do feel okay, so to hire persons who are formerly incarcerated that's what I was saying.
Speaker 2:Before you take some precautions, you create a code, you pretend they stick with that code and you are free to dismiss them in the probation time if they do not adhere to that code. But before that I don't promise you a job. I give you a chance for X, Y, Z months. Let me see what you can do. So you try not to risk too much, right, and you verify periodically. And plus, we were willing to take some responsibilities, selecting the best ones. For example, when we did the first badge with Mr Mitchell, they had to come to my office and they had four workshops with us about how to behave being on time, being polite, being professional, being serious, being not arrogant. We were really lecturing them to make sure that they were able to stick with what was required. That was a way forward where you do not promise too much but you just try. But if they don't comply, you are free to tell them. Excuse me, you are not exactly what you're supposed to be.
Speaker 1:Okay, but what about even before that? Are there some persons who you would say, okay, I would recommend these persons to be employed, or I wouldn't recommend these persons to be employed? Is there some kind of screening that you would have, or is it just? Anybody. Yes, most you know before they reach to you know Most.
Speaker 2:That, a little bit, is the same, similar to the process why you grant parole to somebody, right? Ah okay, you grant parole to somebody after an amount of interview, an amount of reports from the institution, an amount, for example. We send the reports to the parole board to say yes or no. So there is a parachute to avoid to expose you too much, but also, on the other hand, there is the choice not to put them borderline because that's the best way to send them back to commit another crime. It's hard to judge somebody when you don't give any opportunity. You can judge when he got an opportunity and lose it.
Speaker 2:In that case, we had one male which was in prison for some time. He was very well literate and along the serving time he was teaching to other inmates. Right, he was a teacher and he was very good. When he left he got some assistance from us and at that time from Nancy Anderson, which was at the law school, and Nancy took it in. He became an attorney and the day when he graduate he was us and he was speaking out.
Speaker 2:I was, I was at the. At the beginning I was disappointed because I thought that it was not wise for him to say we where he was coming from. But he said I want to say where I'm coming from to show you that I did it. I hope that that will encourage you to understand that yeah, I did something wrong. I pay for it. But now I want to let you know that I will give back and as an attorney, every year I'm willing to follow three cases pro bono for stand up for Jamaica, because I got and I want to give back. It was very emotional. I can imagine.
Speaker 1:I can imagine it's not that all the time we are very successful.
Speaker 2:No, but there is quite. Look at the numbers. Numbers are important, right? According to DCS and JDF, out of three people leaving the institution, one is coming back. In the general population, among those on rehabilitation, it is one every two, three hundred.
Speaker 1:Repeat that.
Speaker 2:Please repeat that statistic, I say among the general population out of three one is coming back.
Speaker 1:Okay, but it's going back to prison.
Speaker 2:Yeah, these are the numbers that we get from DCS reports. Among those which are part of the rehabilitation, programs is one out of 200, 300. Programs is one out of 200, 300. It's very sad. I think that we work at correctional services since 2007. It means quite a long time. I think that we have been seeing 12, 13, coming back, which means it works.
Speaker 1:Wow, well, and that's so important. So in your programs, do you have a typical type of person that participates in your program or, again, is it just a diverse population that joins?
Speaker 2:No, we don't have a type of person and I don't even want to know too much what they did. If they want to tell me, fine, but it's not our job to judge them, because some crimes are horrible, right? Somebody which is a pedophile, it might be difficult to digest it. So we do not ask too much. What we ask and we want to see is changes, no matter what you need, but for certain programs we privilege those which have short sentences, for example.
Speaker 2:Example, we have a big project since two, three years entrepreneurship that was motivated by the fact that it's so difficult to be employed, right? So we have been trying to find an alternative, another avenue, to teach them to develop a little business on their own, so they don't have to go and ask. They can be cosmetologists. We have a team which is doing landscaping in houses, so every day they have one house to attend. We have somebody which has opened a computer lab that helps them to develop an activity on their own. So you have to teach them principle of business accounts all this kind of story, right, and entrepreneurship has been meaning, and entrepreneurship has been meaning a lot of changes, because we had to change dramatically some of the programs been offering to develop this.
Speaker 2:For example, we want to thank the Lasko Foundation, which has been engaging some of them. They sell the Lasko products. In the same time they do training on entrepreneurship. We want to say thank you to Sandals Foundation, which is doing something similar, helping us to develop the famous entrepreneurship. So it's a work in progress and I think that, if I can say something openly judge not, that was Marley thing right. Judge not before you prove them. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So as we look at rehabilitation and reintegration, who would you believe is responsible or can even play a part in these processes? I mean, so often when we think about them, we think about the professionals, we think about them, we think about the professionals, we think about you, we think about correctional officers, we think about psychiatrists or psychologists. But does the wider society have a role to play in rehabilitation and in reintegration?
Speaker 2:They should have a key role. They should have a vital role because without a partnership with civil society we don't reach anywhere. I want to spend the two words also on how difficult it is as a job to be a correctional officer. Correctional officer is working in one of the most difficult environment. You can think about a prison right. Their salary is ridiculous. I was looking at some of the salaries last week. The basic one is 65,000 per month, joanna 65,000 per month and in fact some of the good ones they try to leave. They try to find something else and it's a pity because, for example, those are the best officers. If they were empowered, get a better salary, allowed to use their professional skill towards their mates, would have been highly motivated. So they have a very, very, very hard task to deal with and every minute I hear about corruption, corruption, corruption. Pay the people what they're supposed to be paid and allow them to have a distant life.
Speaker 2:Look at what? The teachers migrating it's the same story, right. Look at the teachers migrating it's the same story, right? So in an environment like the correctional services, there are two victims the inmates, but sometimes also the correctional services officers. They don't have the prestige of a police officer, they don't, they don't have all the allowances that are offered to police officers. So civil society should play a role, because or you want them back, or you don't want them back, or you jump on board or please stop lamentating about violence and crime.
Speaker 1:Okay, stop lamentating. So what should I do instead?
Speaker 2:What should the wider society do, instead Give them a chance a second chance?
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, could you paint a little bit of a picture, a quick picture about the experience. I cannot hear you.
Speaker 2:Johanna, Can you?
Speaker 1:can you? Yeah sorry, can you?
Speaker 2:paint a bit of a picture about the experience of a correctional officer in a Jamaican correctional facility. Well, I'm not a correctional officer, but I see them. The first of all, they transfer them up and down. So on rehabilitation, for example, we have some which are good and they have skills, so we try to include them, for example, in the University of the Caribbean scholarship. In each batch of inmates we have one officer to give them an opportunity too, because we have five inmates and one officer five inmates and one officer. But every minute it happens that I don't know who decided that today they drive the ambulance so they want to be able to go classes, so they won't be able to go classes. We have people which are assigned to the school and are teaching. One morning they learn they have to go to the kitchen and peel potatoes, so they cannot continue to work.
Speaker 2:I think it's very frustrating for them the fact that they somehow move without their consent, without being able to to to be more professional from one task to the other one. I know also, I've seen where they stay, I see where they sleep. It's not much better than the prisons Cells, it is really basic. So they should receive some more attention for the kind of work that they do, because it's very delicate and you cannot pretend a high performance with a very small salary and very small recognition of their dignity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, thank you. So just jumping a little bit, what are some of the characteristics you believe? Persons who members of the wider society, who want to work, who want to support incarcerated and formerly incarcerated persons. What are some of the maybe knowledge, skills, abilities they would need to have in order to do this job effectively or to support them effectively?
Speaker 2:Today there is a request for technology ideas that we had and it works. Um about other jobs. I cannot tell you, because you might need a good plumber.
Speaker 1:Same way, no no, I'm sorry, Sorry, Um, I'm actually talking about not the incarcerated persons themselves, but the wider society. What do? Who do we need to become to be in order to support persons well and effectively?
Speaker 2:you don't need to do anything much first of all. Maybe you should show some availability to partner, for example, with us to say what what they can do. I am open to all forms of partnership offers, and I'm not talking only about donors which give money, but donors which give time, expertise, the National Domino Society, something like that, I don't remember the name. This person was coming to the prison himself to teach them to play domino, to do domino tournament, and there were like 250 people engaged when we had the final prizes. You should see how much the inmates were participating and he was loved by everybody. Every time he was entering the prison, everybody was calling his name, waving at him. That is one another one, somebody which was doing sports. He was promoting some cricket activities. He brought some bats, some stuff, for example, stand up boots, the t-shirts, and there were tournaments and there were teams of inmates, teams of officers. That is one of the many ways to contribute. I think that everybody can contribute according to what he or she is, and all of them are welcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, thank you. So, as we as we close, what do you believe are some of the things, the factors that contribute to persons changing their behavior, their lifestyle, living a life of crime?
Speaker 2:As I said, opportunities, and in this case I want to mention juveniles. Juveniles are the worst. Right, you have children which are incarcerated when they are 14. And in Jamaica, until a few months ago, there were the famous uncontrollable children. Uncontrollable children are children which are unruly, right. Most of the times the reason why they are unruly is because of a trauma. They have been molested, they have been raped, they have been beaten up, they have been totally neglected. So they start to behave in a rude way as a reaction. You have been molested, you go to your mother and your mother tells you shut up, because the man is the breadwinner. So the child which is a victim becomes the element of disturbance in the family. So they don't go to school, they come late at night, they smoke ganja, they drink Guinness, etc. And the parent goes to the police station stating I cannot manage the child. The child ends in a courthouse and ends in a prison 14 years old. So if there is what is, as you say, a call for the major challenges, I think that we should all together review that chapter and try to find avenues which are not detention With those juveniles which are incarcerated.
Speaker 2:There are three elements which are dramatic. One their loneliness. They lose the family, the environment, the community, the school, so they're totally lost the dishes. They do not know the value of doing XYZ, so they are completely handicapped. Third, they are in a one-sex institution at an age where sexual activities are blooming and I don't want to go there too much, but I want to express the fact that it's very alarming. Once they leave the institution and they are 18, they're a failure. It is one of my major failures. I'm not able to say that we had big success with most of them. One they are terribly traumatized, so they're not normal. Two, they are scattered all over the island, so how do you find somebody which end up in St Elizabeth? I lose, we lose contacts. Three, they're not able to be adults and balance, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what I'm hearing is, I mean and you mentioned it earlier that, as you said, a juvenile situation is even more dire than we perhaps really recognize, and what I really am hearing coming out more and the most is just how the main challenges that persons whether you're male, female or a young person are having are social issues, loneliness, unable to, you know, maintain ties with children, unable to gain employment, and what that means is that, and I think what I would like to underscore and bring out is that us, the wider society, really do have a role to play.
Speaker 1:We don't have to be parents to help with loneliness. We don't have to, you know. We can be persons that help to facilitate ties being strengthened while persons are incarcerated. And so I just want to go back to the question, though in terms of what do you believe help people to be rehabilitated? Then, you know so. Is it by providing company for young people, is it, you know? Or for the woman? Is it just so that they'll have increased ties to their children and then they'll be able to go through the educational program? What have you seen?
Speaker 2:as I said, according to the context, the needs might be different. Right, male has a different context from women and children as a very peculiar context. What I think that they do they all of them, if you summarize a little is the fact that they feel that there might be another opportunity for them on one side. That is common right. And secondly, I go back to the word loneliness Men feel lonely, women feel lonely, children feel dramatically lonely. So don't cut the ties with the families, because that is a vital home to keep them on track. Third, when it is possible, try to think about some form of diversion. You don't need to lock up somebody which has been tief in tridashin because he has no money to pay the bill.
Speaker 2:It doesn't make any sense and for some of the juveniles, some alternative option as children home halfway houses. And also the last element is why don't you help the families? That's the best way to allow to stay home instead of ending up in a juvenile institution.
Speaker 1:All right, okay, thank you so much, ms Golosa, for sharing your experiences. Truly, you have done so much work in this area, you know, and I want to say congratulations, Joanna.
Speaker 2:Let me say that I didn't do enough work. I spend 80% of the time to find funds. I spend 80% of the time to get more possibilities and sometimes I feel it's not enough. It's not enough.
Speaker 1:But we try every day. You are one person with a small army, and you have done a lot, because there are hundreds of people who have gone through your educational programs and you have had many successes, and if it were not for you, we probably would not know a lot about the plight of incarcerated people in this nation. And so, even if that is the main thing that you have done, you have done a lot, and so I want to say thank you for the work that you have done. You know for coming from Italy you know your home to come to Jamaica you didn't have to come.
Speaker 2:No, I'm Jamaican. Remember that I'm Jamaican now. I got my citizenship 17 years ago, so be careful.
Speaker 1:No, well before, I mean before. But no, this was of choice, you know. So you are a citizen of choice and we are grateful. And I just want to give you an opportunity to say one thing. You know, if there's one thing, you want the listener to remember you know, could you share that with my listeners?
Speaker 2:One thing to remember is remember that everybody is a human being, remember that most of us can make a mistake, and remember that a little mercy helps in life.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Thank you. Thank you so much, listeners, for joining with us, my fellow peace seekers and change makers for joining with us today. On Safer Tomorrow Today we had Maria Carla Golotto. She's the executive director of Stand Up for Jamaica, of Stand Up for Jamaica, and she has done so much work serving the population of persons who live within our correctional facilities and who transition out and are to be reintegrated into society. I want to encourage you to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Safer Tomorrow Podcast, and to follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Safer Tomorrow Pod. Thank you so much and have a good evening. Bye.
