Safer Tomorrow Podcast
The Safer Tomorrow Podcast aims to reduce crime and violence today by raising awareness about solutions while providing practical tips, strategies and stories that inspire and empower change makers and peace seekers (regular citizens) to effect change.
As someone who has conducted research in this area, Dr. Jo is convicted about civil society's role in the crime problem and our responsibility to be part of the solution. Change is possible, and so Safer Tomorrow provides actionable and doable steps, everyone can participate in to create a safer, more compassionate, and equitable world.
When a crime is committed, trust is broken, the person who committed the crime has to prove themselves to earn trust.
But it's not just up to them. We must rethink the way we categorize people who make poor decisions and everything we think we know about them, their story, and their future. We must rebuild broken possibilities and connections and provide new potential. And we must reach out to become the community that helps others walk a healed path.
It may push us out of our comfort zones, but it's within our capacity.
Let's take action and create positive change together.
Safer Tomorrow Podcast
Working with Youth | The Journey of a Peace Advocate | Leroy Montaque
On the Safer Tomorrow podcast, we're honored to host Mr. Montaque as he recounts his evolution from a youth in Jamaica's inner cities to an academic achiever and a beacon for community betterment. His narrative is not just his own; it's a beacon of hope illustrating the profound impact of mentorship and educational opportunities.
Volunteerism isn't just about giving back; it's a journey of self-discovery and growth. In our latest episode, we dissect how engaging with our communities, particularly our youths, builds a foundation of empathy, justice, and professionalism. I share my personal experiences guiding church youth and analyze how these interactions have shaped my understanding of the world. We also shed light on the creative and necessary strategies to overcome the hurdles faced by communities in Jamaica, emphasizing that every act of volunteerism moves us closer to a society where everyone thrives.
Wrapping things up, we gain invaluable insights from Mr. Montaque, a correctional officer whose mentorship within the justice system speaks volumes about the human capacity for redemption. His stories from the trenches reveal the delicate balance between maintaining security and fostering rehabilitation. As we bid farewell to our guests, we reaffirm our commitment to touching lives, reflecting on the collective responsibility to nurture the generations ahead. Join us as we continue to unravel stories that empower us to contribute to a safer, more just tomorrow.
Hi and welcome to the Safer Tomorrow podcast, your resource for crime and violence reduction and creating more peaceful societies. I'm your host, dr Joe. I'm a community social work educator and a criminal justice researcher and I am very passionate about finding solutions for my nation, jamaica, to reduce the spate of violence. Today we have Mr Leroy Montiq In this episode. He really echoes a lot of the sentiments that I have in my personal beliefs. If you really want to have a better understanding and insight into the minds of adolescents living within inner city communities, this is the episode for you. So join us today as we talk to Mr Leroy.
Speaker 1:Montiq, thank you. Today I have Mr Leroy Montiq. He is passionate about enhancing the welfare of people, organizations and society. His educational background is in theology, education, guidance and counseling, and behavioral science. Combined with his professional experience working with offenders has enabled him to apply his knowledge and skills through numerous behavior change initiatives in communities and organizations catering to vulnerable groups in society. Mr Montiq was honored as a recipient of the prestigious Shevyn scholarship in 2020, which enabled him to complete a master's in behavioral science at Durham University in England. In his leisure time, he enjoys writing about social issues through his blog, staying fit, watching anime, socializing with friends and connecting with nature. Above all, he remains a humble servant of God and an active leader at Ecclesiabible Fellowship. Since 2013, mr Montiq has been a volunteer with PALS Peace and Love in Society, jamaica. The organization has been working to help people in schools, communities and organizations find ways to resolve conflicts since the early 1990s. Welcome, mr Montiq.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's my pleasure to be here. Yes, yes, yes, and I'm passionate about the whole. I love my country, I love Jamaica and I want to see Jamaica change. I believe Jamaica can change and we are all in it. As helping professions, we have that passion and that drive to see our nation changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, and I am so grateful for your commitment to peace and justice and security. Work here in Jamaica I mean working in the schools, working, you know, just this type of work is hard work it's labor, it's intense.
Speaker 2:Yes, I like what's saying, like everything that I do. It really intersects with the whole thing, with schools, communities, people. It's always about people and behavior and everything you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you so much for dedicating your life to this, and also congratulations on the scholarship. Yes, and congratulations on the master's in 2020. Yes, all right. So just to find out in terms of the beginning how did you first become involved in peace, justice, security work? What was your personal journey in this area?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean from an early age I had this passion to understand people. I mean, I think my area, what I am doing, is a calling. I mean I don't think it's just an academic pursuit, it's something that is innate. So I grew up in the inner city, in Whitfield town I mean Kingston five, around those vicinities where you know crime and violence is commonplace. You would have grown up with people. You would have seen them taken a different path. Some people have died. So many things right. But you, for some reason, because of the parental guidance that you had, because of my involvement in the church as a teenager and stuff like that, I had positive role models. I had people who really instilled in me and mentored me, and I was fortunate to go to one of those. What they call the prestigious high schools in Jamaica again exposed me. We have to be real. These environments expose you to certain things that you don't get somewhere else, unfortunately, and as a result of these opportunities and this exposure, it would have propelled me to want to help other persons, to see how I would help, to guide them to make better decisions. So when I was in high school, my guidance comes to play the pivotal role, because that's Jennifer Jarrett. Of course. She played a pivotal role in my life because I saw how she had this genuine love for students. She looked out for the vulnerable, she went the extra mile and I wanted to be like that. I wanted to take the lead at that, so I emulate it, and it also shows how impactful teachers or educators can be on the lives of their students. And I said I wanted to do something around counseling or guidance, something it really didn't solidify. In fact, even after I left school, I kind of forget it, because everybody you want to do the things that seem a little bit more attractive, but it was something inside of you that wasn't pulling that way. But I started my first degree in theology, guidance and counseling because I think it offered me an opportunity to help people understand the psychology of people and also understand human behavior, even also as faith or faith impacts people and how it in terms of the moral decisions and everything around that. So I started that. I'm around nearing to finish in, say, 2013, 2014,.
Speaker 2:Janelia Brickian, who is a general manager for Pulse, asked me if I would come and volunteer with Pulse and I gladly went. That year we did some work in a Kingston high school I won't name the school they were having some serious challenges with several students who, I mean they had run in with the police and stuff like that. So when we did a needs assessment, we recognized that we had to pull these students and really deal with them. During that program, we had gotten some funding from, I think, multi care foundation one of them and we were able to run a program and really intervening their lives and know through life skills, helping them to develop critical thinking skills to resolve conflicts. We also incorporated appearance to help them how to you know better parenting, build better relationships with their children so that they can enable them to make better decisions and stuff like that. That was the inception of it, right there, and then, and then that led to one thing I mean by 2018, I wanted to do more, in fact, let me backtrack.
Speaker 2:So, before I finished my first degree, I started working in the correction facilities because I saw that this it really meshed well with my outlook on life and really impacting the lives of people. So I went there not just to get a job but to add to the whole rehabilitative process, right? So, all of everything, there are so many things happening at once right, and so that's 2011. So we go back to 2040, you know, or 2030, when I joined PALS right, and I've been with them ever since. But I also wanted to do more.
Speaker 2:I volunteered with the restorative justice arm of the Ministry of Justice as a restorative justice facilitator and I worked with the Auguston Center at that time, where we got the opportunity to help people who had disputes and who were referred there by the courts, because often when people go to the courts it tend to be retributive.
Speaker 2:So what you find is that people might win, but they really didn't win. The relationship, relationships are still destroyed, but I want a case. So what restorative justice seeks to do is to help people resolve their conflicts and try to mend those relationships so that the community can be healthy and people can continue building positive lives, positive energy and stuff like that. So that was a pivotal thing and it really helped me to give back to the community. And what I recognize also is that because of the restorative justice case, it has removed some cases out of the court. It has helped the backlog of many cases in the courts, because the courts don't have these cases anymore to deal with and I mean people would have come to an agreement to resolve certain minor offenses and stuff like that. So here I know, you know, I went, I went on the scholarship, I went further doing liberal science and yeah, yeah, wow, I mean so many things in your story.
Speaker 2:That I would like to yes that.
Speaker 1:I would like to just highlight, so I will start from the back. I mean restorative justice. I think I wonder if we truly recognize the value of restorative justice and that it works. You know, I had the opportunity to participate in one session while working within one of the communities and I recognized the process was really was useful and it worked. You know, and so I appreciate what you spoke about in terms of you know, it's not just about winning a case, but it's about winning the relationship right.
Speaker 1:And the impact that that has on the larger community. And what I find interesting about your journey is just how much you speak about the people who influenced you. And you know, as we talk about crime and violence and in some of my pri well, most, I could almost say all of my previous podcasts, you know episodes what is really standing out is the role of persons and how much persons play a role in crime and violence reduction as well as prevention.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You spoke about you know your parents. You spoke about your teacher as a role model. You spoke about role model the role models that you would find in the church, and so you had this community, maybe not all in the same geographical space, but all of these persons who you were able to call on. And again, another point that is so important, that you made was going to a traditional high school.
Speaker 1:Yes, and persons. I don't know again if we truly appreciate that when we go to a traditional high school, already it puts you at a disadvantage because of the exposure, the networks that you have access to, the teachers, the resources you know that you have access to, while in other schools that perhaps are not traditional high schools, they may be under resourced, overcrowded and faced with a number of challenges that traditional schools are, they don't face.
Speaker 2:Which was an experience that I had when we were doing the program in that Kingston. In fact, we did other programs within schools within that locale, in what is that? South St Andrew, south West St Andrew, those areas and what you found was is that they were under resourced. The motivation for learning, the environment was more hostile. In fact, I remember when I was working at one school, I was grateful for the experience that I had not having to go through this, because I recognized that it was like night and day to me in terms of my experience at Calabar High School and with this school.
Speaker 2:And I'm saying it really goes to show how important education is in the fight of crime and violence and giving people the opportunity so that they can develop themselves academically, intellectually, psychologically, to become productive members of society. And when they lack these things, they are going to look for role models elsewhere, people who might be negative because they have not been equipped with these skills. So they become vulnerable and you know, yeah, so it's important that our authorities, that the educational authorities, the government and whoever is in charge, recognize that investing and I'm not saying that they are not investing in education, because if we know the partisan report that came out and it highlighted so many issues within the educational domain. It did say that we have been investing a whole lot in education, but the problem is what we are investing in. Has it been effective? How has these funds being used? Are they being used effectively? So we have a lot of work to do to really address these issues as they come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, thank you. What do you believe are, you know, some of the personal qualities, value skills that you Hold true and close to your heart, that propels you in this work and provide some of the success that you have had?
Speaker 2:Social and emotional intelligence. It's very important for us to understand ourselves, understand our environment, understand people and being able to know to maneuver the differences and the circumstances that come our way as we interact in relationship sense to fly that. I think that's one of the big issues we face in our country when it comes on to that sense of security, that sense of emotional intelligence. Also being able to identify our emotions, knowing how we feel and how that impacts our behavior and how to express that feeling and then know how to Express what you want Right, so that people can have an understanding of how to address the issues that you're facing. Not being able to communicate, that brings Confusion, miscommunication and all of these things. So I believe also, empathy is important. You have to be able to experience what other persons are experienced, try to experience or feel their own lived realities, because often experts Go into these areas and the communities. I mean some people might go with this sense of Huberry that I know it all and everything, when you really don't know nothing. Because really and surely it's when you start talking to the people and getting them involved in the process that you will recognize that there are things that you do not know, and that they may not have the educational Qualifications as you, but they possess knowledge. It possess skills that you need to be effective. So working with them and bringing them at the table is critical, because they know what their problems are.
Speaker 2:Often people think that they know what people's problems are, so they don't consult them, and then when you do the implementation, it is ineffective because they were never a part of the process, right? So empathy is important being able to listen to people, hearing them what they are saying here in their heart, what is that they want, right? So effective communication is important to Having an understanding of how people think. So I mean people who are in this work. It's important for them to understand some level of psychology, sociology, how groups and functions in society and communities and how it impacts the individual, and stuff like that. My, my theological background is also important in terms of how my fate drives what I do and how I see people, and I see the value in people because I am looking at them. I will talk about the image, or the image of God looking at somebody and seeing potential in them, seeing that they can be more than what we actually see, right, I mean this is important to being effective in the area. In the field, yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you. I mean very, very important points. So how do you think persons can cultivate these kinds of qualities? Right, because sometimes we hear them but we're like, okay, yes, but how do I get there?
Speaker 2:Yes, for me it didn't happen overnight Because, listen, we all have biases. We all have biases. We remember, we carry a baggage, we are coming from a similar circumstances. How do we see people? You know our perspective, our views of people and, having done behavioral science, I had to encounter this issue about our own biases. I mean, look at me now working in the correctional facility, working among people who have committed crime.
Speaker 2:I mean, even though I understand, based on where I'm coming from, from the instable, the social issues that may drive people, those external issues, I still believe that people have responsibility and accountability for their actions. How do I treat it? Somebody who has been charged for murder? I have this strong sense of justice, though I'm empathetic, though I'm loving them, caring, I try to hold these things in tension and there are times when I struggle to To. You know, I know and I have to treat somebody equal, I have to treat them fairly, but you have that struggle. But I have come to understand that professionalism, professionalism is important. I've come to understand that I am not perfect either and I may have been given opportunities that others may not have gotten. But put that aside, how do people, how do they cultivate these, these, these, these qualities. The reality is that you have to, just as you work in the field, as you Volunteer and you give yourself over, opportunities come and you will learn from other people.
Speaker 2:For me personally before then I was in the church, I would deal youth leadership, I got certain opportunities to interact with people. So the skills developed over time Right. You have to also recognize who you are, do a self assessment what is it I lack? What is on my weaknesses and my strengths? And then you determine what do you need to work on, how you need to get there. So that's that, that's, that's really it, and I am still learning, because there are some things that I am not strong in. But I have sought to develop myself in these areas and, as I volunteered at Pals, as I work within the correctional facilities, as I work within Communities, I get the opportunity to be put in positions so that I can learn these skills, so that I am, I am, forced to engage people.
Speaker 2:So if I am not like communication, by virtue of being in that space, I would have to communicate with people. I would have to listen to them. Right, because I mean One of them. I remember in the past one thing I struggle with. I think I would listen to people but I wouldn't listen to them. But I have learned over time to listen, to hear them. You know you don't have all the answers, no matter how in good your intentions are. You have to listen to people. Yes, so get involved in your communities. Get involved in the organization. Police, youth clubs we talk about projects are doing so many things. Contact the organizations, ask them if they want help. Many organizations are struck for cash Because they are nonprofit organizations. They don't pay. Most of their persons work. So they would be glad for the help if people would just come and volunteer. So we need more people to volunteer their time and their effort within these efforts. Yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I like how you just naturally it's like you naturally went into what I want to speak about next, which was a volunteerism, because I heard as you spoke about your own journey that volunteerism played a kind of key role and feature in your own development and then you focused on it here. What do you think is the volunteer landscape? What the volunteer landscape is like here in Jamaica?
Speaker 2:I think there I've been in situations where people ask about doing things, volunteer. Probably one of the biggest issues that they face is where they're located. In Jamaica, where the programs are. A lot of things are focused in Kingston and sent and a lot of these programs, if we are to be honest. I mean sometimes they go to Montego Bay, which are major cities, but a lot of people in the rural communities are left. They don't have anything. The rural areas are often forgotten.
Speaker 2:So I believe that people within these domains they want to volunteer, they want to get involved. They might have police, youth clubs, but what other things are there? I mean, I could encourage people to work with schools, right? Do you have any skills that you can give back to your community school, a basic school, a primary school, something you together as a community can recognize a problem and come together as a team and say lead, we want to address this issue. You probably can reach out to the police, youth club or some organization to help you. How is it we can help you to achieve your goals or teach us ways, how we can form a particular group to address a particular problem, right? I mean, I'd be glad for the help because I believe this mantra that I am because of, we are because we are.
Speaker 2:So my understanding of self is not separate and apart from the community, right. So my identity is also tied up in the community, something often that Western societies have really generally don't really because of the strong sense of individualism. But when you work in these areas you recognize the importance of community and how individuals find themselves within community, that support system that offers to shape their identity and their understanding, that it is tripping you of your individualism but it is offering you a sense of meaning and purpose within the domain of community. So these things are very important. So work with your communities, look where you can give aid or give support the church, the church youth group. So many things can, can, can happen. So, but as I said earlier, I think there are more needs to be done for the rural communities, because most of the work is really centered within the, the, the, what you call it now, the capital or the more rural urban areas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, thank you. So, as you could, you share a little bit about your work, your training programs, some of the you know principles as well as actual activities that you use in your work with young people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in our work I've gotten the opportunity to work with teenagers and younger children and what you realize is that when you're working with them, you have to know the difference because younger children, they are easily distracted. So you know that most of the things that you do to teach them about conflict, they have to be visual aids songs, sounds, movements so that they can get the principles, get the ideas. When you're working with teenagers, you have to understand the popular culture. You have to know where, going down the streets or what's going on on the ground so that you can connect with them. Because they're in a stage where you know the identity versus role, confusion. You know, find the rebellious nature. Right, they know it all. You don't know more than I do. I want to have that. So understanding them. So you don't approach them as I know it all, you don't beat down on them. You try to understand them. You talk to them, level with them, understand where they are coming from. So in these sessions we look at things like perspectives or our environment influence how we see people and see ourselves, right. So understanding perspective is important. So in understanding people's perspectives, it means that you need to communicate with them. You need to listen, to hear what others are saying. What has happened to them, how has their own lives been?
Speaker 2:Because sometimes you work in these in-city communities and you're doing the programs and you will have in a session, right, teenagers. They're there and what you find is that you might have groups or cliques within the whole session, because one road is in violence with another road and their relatives are involved in this violence. So they stay far from each other. And then you are discussing topics about forgiveness or reconciliation and some of them say I can't forgive nobody, you know, because that makes you look weak. To show emotions or the positive emotions make you seem weak, because in a society like ours I'm showing negative emotions, anger and these things makes you seem strong. Right. So to take the low road or to say, all right, you're in a conflict with somebody. When they evaluate it, you realize that there is nothing to gain from it, right, you can probably just walk away from it. But sir, sir, I'm in a bit of trouble, sir, I'm in a week. If I don't do that, sir, I'm not gonna take me out, idiot.
Speaker 2:So, people, the whole idea of self-esteem and ego plays such a big role in these sessions. So we explain to them about emotions and understanding your emotions and what they are communicating, being able to speak to people and tell them how you feel, being able to tell people what you expect from them. So one of the big issues that I realized that they are challenged with they don't know how to identify their emotions and because they are not able to do that, they must say sir, I'm a feel away. And you're asking what does feel away mean? What are you saying? Are you angry? Are you disappointed? Things like that.
Speaker 2:Challenges also that we face within these settings are literacy issues Because of, again, the social context you might have. Some can't read well, so you have to find more creative ways of really communicating the material, and that is where the music comes in. So you use popular culture, you use that music and you ask them what is this music saying? What do you think these lyrics are positive? Or you think these lyrics kind of impact your decisions? Would you follow what he's saying? You know how do you think this impact the culture and the society? Things like that. You get them doing activities, role play. You understand games, playing games I mean building a sense of where they can recognize that you're trying to connect with them. You know, because you have to build that trust, because I'm not really trust people easily in a community. I wonder what I'm up to on people. I'm still shitting people. Yes, that's just how it is.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you have to also understand that people are either unemployed or self-employed. So the lady have her style, don't atone. And you want her, as a parent, to leave the style to come to the session. When she come to the session, her day of wage agar jeopardize. What are you going to do? You know these are non-profit. So sometimes people have to explore things like stipends. You have to ensure that you have meals at these sessions, because it's the reality you're dealing with and there have been cases where people are saying if you don't have meals, they're incoming, you know, and stuff like that. So you have to understand the context and the environment and you always have to have this individual in the community who is like that Me, that point of contact with the people, between you and the people, because they know the community. Yeah, so they will know where the people live. They'll go for Shani. You say remember the program, the key, remember to come six o'clock, and stuff like that. These things are very important, so I hope I answered the question.
Speaker 1:Yes and beyond, and one of the things because I talk about this with my students recently, you know about music and there is this whole discussion and debate about whether music influences behavior. What are some? What? What, if you recall what, some of the feedback that you get from your students, what do they believe?
Speaker 2:All right when I I remember we spoke about this with some of them and even I did it once, also when I was doing my guidance on counseling practical a couple of years ago, and the students said to me it influenced them, it was, it was kind of weird. It says when it comes on the violence, if them here say I forgot to go to shoot a man, they might not go to shoot a man, but. But one of the things that I recognize is that in more subconscious ways it does impact them and their decisions. But I don't think when you ask them the question would you take it up. It seems more shocking that you know they will tell you no.
Speaker 2:But how, in other ways, does it make you aggressive? Does it make you feel like, listen to me, I'm a bad man and if a man tell me something, I tell my mom that I have a liquor of him, fierce. So I like them, things there. So me and I go, fear gone. But one thing might lead to another and to a lot of. One thing they made and they told me is that when it comes on to sexual Activities, it influenced them more in that area, but not so much in the violence.
Speaker 2:Yes but, but Sexually, when it comes on to having sex and stuff like that, yes, so they in that way. I found that quite interesting when they made that dichotomy between the violence.
Speaker 2:But they said, yeah, sexually, yeah, I don't think it can influence them. But we know the psychology of the prefrontal cortex and how that influence our reasoning and stuff like that, you know, and the whole idea, the pleasure Areas within the mind, within the brain, and stuff like that. So your music is powerful. But the debate continues to what degree music influences our behavior.
Speaker 1:Yes, and before we continue, I just wanted to Insert an idea that I had not thought about before. I was having this discussion about music and the influence of music an ongoing debate between between a friend and I and there was a gentleman who was sitting down and he was listening to us debate and eventually we invited him into the conversation to ask his perspective and he said, actually what you know, he gave us another perspective, which was as as somebody who is trying to become known in the, for example, dancehall industry right, and you, when you're what you're singing about our Violin songs. And he said, you may not know anything about violence. You never touch a gun before you know that that has not, that was not a part of your history. But he says, once you begin to start singing the song, it is the image that you're portraying. So in a sense, people expect, and then you begin to expect of yourself that you need to have a gun, and so it's almost as though there is this kind of slide in to violence as a mute, as a musician, because of the image portrayal and the desire to keep up that particular.
Speaker 1:And I think this, this kind of, reminds me of what you were speaking about earlier, and it's important to understand the belief systems, because you know when persons respond in a particular way. We might be appalled at the response, but the truth is that the responses are undergirded by a belief system and, for example, you were speaking about that belief system being that Any response in humility, for example, or de-escalating- a situation is actually seen as weakness and not strength, and you know, being strong in, in, in some of the communities and being perceived as weak is actually more Endangering and a challenge to persons than it is.
Speaker 1:You know, then, then yeah, the whole environment itself.
Speaker 2:Growing up in tough communities. Being tough is how you survive. Yeah because when I was growing up with my sisters in the community I mean they were on several characters. If they had their way they could have. I mean, it's real life. But my mother was a strong. Some things we wouldn't tell her because she would go and cant throughout the day for them as yeah, that warrior.
Speaker 2:So we don't bother tell her. If my sister's past and a boy called to them, then nobody will go say nothing to her. Because you know you know stuff like that and because she was, she had to be strong so she demonstrated this strong persona. Sometimes you don't think they are too emotional, but you know them, love you, but the environment, just it brought that out in people. You know you had to be strong, how people will walk over you and to a degree it's. It's true, it's unfortunate, but it's true. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you for that. So, in terms of the, the persons that you work with, do you find that perhaps you have to use different strategies based on, let's say, how involved the the young persons might be involved in? Sorry, let me repeat, do you find that you have to use different strategies with young people who might be more involved in criminal activities or criminal behavior than those who you know may just be vulnerable in that space?
Speaker 2:Definitely, especially working within the department of correctional services, remember they would basically do Assessment of the individual to determine their risk. We talk about criminogenic factors, the different factors that would be exactly lead somebody to commit to crime. So when you look at Some young men, I mean they are not, there's nothing major. So probably what you do, I mean you would have some counseling sessions with them, get to know them a little better, get to understand what's happening in their lives, the whole idea of numeracy and literacy to some degree, you'll see that you just need to minor interventions for them. But there are authors who have been steeped into criminality.
Speaker 2:I have been in situations where boys say me someone to give you don't understand, you know, um, if I put them on the gun and go back a road, mr Montecchio Me a week, you know, and then we'll come back for me and my family. So we have a particular family, we have a particular ends and sometimes you ask yourself what should you tell this individual? I mean I will say to them listen, it's difficult because I can't protect them. Right, I can't protect them. They would have been come involved in a gang situation where they have information and and other people and know. They have been caught and they are in this institution and they are saying well, mr Montecchio, you can't just turn the engine, I can't just put only the gun. What do you say to them? Well, I, I, I try to encourage them and let them understand that the world is bigger than the, the space that we have really placed ourselves in. And, um, whilst I can't guarantee Um, because they have to be real with them, I say to them that they can change their, their people who have left gangs, their people have lead, led better lives After the gangs and stuff like that. But you would have to be removed from the community because if they go back into the same space they are going to their. It's recidivism is a mouse, because the space is conducive to them turning back to that lifestyle. So one of the best things, often at probation office and then the aftercare service will indicate, is that they don't go back to that community, right, because that's the best way to help them. They will require a lot of intervention as it relates to counseling, sometimes psychological evaluation, stuff like that, social intervention, considering things like skills and vocational training and stuff like that, because you want them that when they go out they have some certification to do things to be gainfully employed.
Speaker 2:Um, it's also important that the community plays an important role because in Jamaica, sadly, we know so forgiving, you know, of people who commit crimes. You know we're not so embracing of them, people who are ex-cons and stuff like that. We treat them really badly. In fact, when we put somebody in carter it, somebody we don't think them should come out, you let them say that's really key. So you are lost forever, there's no hope for you.
Speaker 2:Um, we really need to change. Or we see people. Um, we really need to have more grace as a society, be more forgiving. I'm not saying that you must remove accountability and responsibility. I'm saying that if somebody's going to re-enter the society, you want them to re-enter in a way that they can give back positively. But if you have not put these things in place, if you're not Welcoming them, if you are not forgiving, if you're not willing to work with them, then they're going to return to that life and they're going to make all of our lives a misery. So as again, remember we talked about community earlier it's a community because if one hurt the world, we hurt, you understand. And our society is feeling that right now, because we have some individuals. Life has dealt them, um not dealt them so well, not um treated them so well, and they have interpreted in a way that you know Babylon system is against them and them have to do what they have to do to survive.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so you may have touched this a little bit a while ago, but I just want to ask it in this way to see if there are any differences. How would you handle situations where you know participants in your training sessions have deeply entrenched biases or or you know conflicting viewpoints.
Speaker 2:Yeah, entrance biases. Let me tell you these things are hard to let go. Doing Gabriel science, you understand how biases work. Biasis are have been built over a period of time because, how you have experienced people in this situation, you have to let them understand that there's another world out there, that the world that they have been taught or that they have learned is just a small cog in a bigger thing. You have to let them see another perspective of life, understand that there are greater things to achieve, because when you talk with them, often they do not have hope. They are limited in how they narrow in their reasoning and they are thinking it's just about the domain that they are in. So you try to get them out of that.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's important to take them out of the bigger group and smaller groups and engage them and challenge those biases using facts. So yes, you have heard it says but let us test this, see if it is actually true. Is it true? Is it the general thing out there when you look at it? No, it's not the general thing. But we are not discarding your experience, but what we are saying is that it's not true for all and it doesn't have to remain this way. This is the best way you can get them, treat them, interact with them one to one understanding, and it doesn't happen overnight. It takes work over a period of time. It takes also after you have done that, if you see the need, you have to probably help produce some referral. You have to probably engage police, youth clubs to connect with them. The support system is going to be integral right there because there is where they are going to get the mentors, people who are going to really show them on other side, because who they know and what they know only limits them to a certain viewpoint.
Speaker 2:So biases take a while to change and sometimes our programs are short term because they are funded.
Speaker 2:We want long term programs and sometimes the argument is that should you start a program when you won't be there forever and it's better to do something than do nothing? But we need longer term programs that can be sustained within these communities to really see change, but not overnight. There is no way a country can end up this way over decades these entrenched views, and we expect that we are going to change these things overnight. So I mean I encourage people who are working in the area of peace and justice or working in their communities, or working to be, to hold on, to have hope, to do your little part. You may not be able to fix everybody and fix the world. We are not calling it to be the savior of the world. What we are calling you to do is to touch lives as much lives as you can, and that will go a far away because it can carry the burden of the world. Somebody pass the button on to you and there's somebody waiting for you to pass the button on to them.
Speaker 1:I just love the way you think I really appreciate all of what you're saying. I mean, it's like resonating with me. But I just want to ask what would you consider as your most successful training session, or one that you enjoyed the most and you believe you had the most impact?
Speaker 2:Okay, I remember when we were working with some students in particular school, very difficult at points we thought that listen to me, it not seem like we are in no way. I mean, at times they will have conflicts while teaching conflict and you're like God, it doesn't make sense. You separate the group. You could deal with that issue. You try to encourage them, let them know why we are here, why we prepared all of this for you, because we care about it, because we love you and you know, even in all of that, remember one, a father showed up at one of the sessions. He was there and he came there to support his child and stuff like that. And it wasn't usual for you to see fathers, it's mostly mothers and to see that he was involved and he wanted to see better for his child was really, really encouraging, right? Not only that, it's to see children.
Speaker 2:I remember one of the participants in this program. I mean couple of years after I was going about my business, you know, and somebody called me. I would not go, I wanted them and I said, mr Montague, what are you doing? And stuff like that. I was happy to see the person you know and to see that they have not really turned the wrong way, that they have. I mean, this was a difficult child, you know, and to see I don't know when exactly the change happened, but to know that you would have been instrumental in instilling some positive value, some hope or whatever in that chance, that it means a whole lot. And when they feel loved, when they feel appreciated, even when they might do bad, even when they're doing bad, and I feel that it can really do something to really transform them.
Speaker 2:I also remember a session that we had in Johnstone. This was like in was it in 2022, early 2022 that we were doing some program. This was being funded by the USAID, but it was being done through the gender, gender arm of the UE, something like that. And we were in the session, guys, and I don't know what happened. It appeared that from the community, there was a particular conflict and I remember, when we had a break on the compound, one parent came in on the compound and attacked one of our participants.
Speaker 2:That was wild, right. We were like what's going to happen? And you are there as a volunteer, you're there and you're like how do we solve this? Because if we don't do something about this, this can spiral out in a worse conflict in this community. What we did, we had the participants and the conflict in individuals to go to the police station and the general manager. We went there. We tried to restorative justice. Basically, we had to be ensued to understand what was, where was this coming from? And we basically break down what we were far the conflict coming from and we were able to resolve that. And me I'm telling you that was good, because if we didn't resolve that, listen, these inner city communities, the way we are, that can lead to a parent hit another child because she and the child and her child is in something I mean another person come and, yes, just like that.
Speaker 2:So I mean, I just imagine what we would have prevented by our intervention right there, so it can be really wholesome. So these things are memorable, those were memorable, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I mean just jumping on a little bit into a little bit more of your correctional officer life. What would you say are some of the insights that you would have received being a correctional officer? So you would have been a peace, peace ambassador.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Was there any different or deeper insights that you had as or have know that you're a correctional officer?
Speaker 2:Definitely Before I went into corrections. How I saw prisoners are people committed crime is totally different. I'm home and see them. Now I'm being honest, my biases, you would buy them. People that are wicked, and listen to me. We need to get rid of them people, and across the society there are many. This is how I felt because I'm coming from the inner city. I see where how they can harm people and how it destroys lives and families.
Speaker 2:So over time I developed, based on my own experience and attitude towards these people, prejudice to against them. You know, you see, when I went into the facility and I started engage these people, I saw a different side. They are humans too. I mean, I am not minimizing the actions or the crime that they committed, but when you start to engage with them over time you even forget the crime that they committed because you recognize this is a human being right. There are many things that would have brought them into what they did or brought them into the circumstances, and you look at them differently. You, you no longer have this bias against them. You don't have to show them and treat this prejudice towards them, but you are more caring and helping and you sometimes look back in your acts.
Speaker 2:When did this happen? Right, and one of the important things that we have to recognize is that there there are punishments, not for punishment. So there's a sense of professionalism that you have to demonstrate. You're not there as judge, jury and executioner, you understand. You're there to treat them, to help to rehabilitate them, and if you are going to rehabilitate them, you have to have an attitude towards individual, because now, how are you going to effective rehabilitate somebody who you resent or you don't like or you see a particular way? It won't work and they will sense that negative energy too. They will know how genuine you are. So these things are very critical within that domain. So I have learned that it has helped me to deal with my own biases and my own prejudice towards people who sometimes are hard to love.
Speaker 1:So this tension between security and rehabilitation, how do you manage it?
Speaker 2:Yes, I knew we were going to go there. How do you manage it? Rehabilitation, because I would consider my work in palace and stuff like that as Intervent is as proactive, trying to prevent them from reaching, and that's one of the great things. I, like I, have experienced both worlds. You understand. How do you? I know that is intervened, but when they are in here now, how you balance it.
Speaker 2:Professionalism is key. You have to remember that whilst you must treat them fairly, you must respect them. You're a professional, so you have to keep those boundaries Right. You have to ensure that whatever you are doing is in line the rules of a correctional institution. So say, for example, our ward says Mr Montague, I want to go and do this, I want to go Whilst.
Speaker 2:You understand that because of the security nature, you can't get to do that. It doesn't mean that we don't value you, but you have to understand that there are certain Rules that you have to abide by. But you still ensure that you give them mental health services. You still ensure that their needs are taken care of, that they get their visits, because these are things are important. You talk to them, you counsel them, you engage them in different conversations. You show that you really care about them and what they are going through. Right, but in December, if they break any of the rules, there are consequences for it. But when you build that relationship with them, they don't see you as an enemy because they knew you had their good At heart you had good intent, but it's interest at heart.
Speaker 2:So, but it comes with building relationships first and foremost, right. And building relationships means being fair. You have to treat them fairly. You have to demonstrate respect towards them because they're coming from environments where they don't understand respect. You understand they see respect as weakness, like you know, oh, you know, and stuff like that. So when you demonstrate, you call them Respectful names and I like mr So-and-so and so-and-so. You know, you don't call them dotty boy and stuff like them. You don't, they mean them, that's what they are used to.
Speaker 2:Because I had situations you know when me I refer to them, my guidance on counseling back good, my social sense back go manifest. I'm actually, and they couldn't appreciate it. I'm taking the week, don't think no week. I had to go to the man's and listen. Boys, I, I, I treat you this way because I value. I treated this way because I considered to be equal. A human being would have worked on value and you can contribute positively to society.
Speaker 2:You have to get your minds away from this idea that when people treat you nicely it's because they're weak or them have some ulterior motive, right, because they're not used to it. You understand, their minds are so fixated in within a particular domain. Um, you have to ensure that you, the literacy and numeracy is an important part of their development, because you again, you want them to come out to be able to contribute positively to society, so you have to help them in that way. Um, things that vocational training and stuff like that, so these things balance. Um, that it's not all about you need to do this and give orders and do this and do this.
Speaker 2:I mean, a lot of people have some negative views of correctional officers outside, or they view because that's it, but a lot of them they have not been into the institutions, they have not understood, they don't know that correctional officers are consulas, are father figures, are mother figures, all of these things you have to play, because some students, some of our Wards, they do not have fathers or the person the father died. Um, they, they are being abandoned by their parents. They have been living on their own since 14, since 12. These are real life situations. There are boys there with baby mothers, right. So when them coming out of the domain, I am talking to them and I'm seeing them as a child, but in their mind they are an adult because they have been living an adult life for so long. So when I say to them you have to do this, I am disrespecting you, them, who is you, mr Montague? You are disrespecting me.
Speaker 2:If you don't understand where they are coming from, you will react negatively towards it. I said I'm going on a man, as you know. But if you understand the psyche or what is going on, this young man has been living an adult life, all is he is an adult. In seven of a room of my furniture and me by it, I have been doing all of these things you can't. So that's who he sees himself. He has a baby outside. Um, he sees himself as an adult. So kind of conflicts will arise because of that sense of miscommunication or misunderstanding. So that's why, um, having that cultural competence or cultural awareness or understanding the social circumstances or social issues that are in your country, will help you to really relate with them better.
Speaker 1:So? So what would you say is maybe the number one myth Of a correctional officer? What do you believe? Maybe the Jamaican society believes about correctional officers that is not correct.
Speaker 2:That there are beaters that then beat prisoners. And I'm some people think people are uneducated too. Yes, I mean, yeah, they do actually do that. A lot of people make some assumptions that they beat. The first things come to people mind when they think of a correctional officer is that a beat? You understand? And it's far from the truth. You understand.
Speaker 2:I am not saying, just like in the police force or anywhere in the world, that you may not have incidents where excessive force might be used, because we have heard about cases like that To a great extent. That's not the general um situation. That's not it. It's about rehabilitating people, mind you. I will tell you that there are a lot more resources that is needed to carry out the work, and I don't think there's much that has been. We need a lot more and, as, again, the psyche of the nation needs to be changed, our attitude towards people need to change and did not only change from Just as a citizen, but even as the political directorate, in terms of how we see individuals and if we think they can be related. I don't think that we are putting much money or much resources in place to really rehabilitate people the effective way. You know, institutions, infrastructure needs to be developed a lot more. Things need to be done Um, um, a lot more.
Speaker 1:What would you say is one key message you would want to give to I know I kind of lumping everybody together, if you want you can rake it up, but to the wider society about this field of work.
Speaker 2:All right, all right working in this field, and one I will tell you, it's not about riches. Um, we generally are social scientists. I don't think when it comes on to the monetary aspect. I'm not treated. We are to be treated like our other counterparts, but we are so critical to society. We're critical to the development of society because we're talking about human capital.
Speaker 2:If people are not functional in society, if they, if, if they don't function Well in society, how will we grow? So all of these people guidance concepts, teachers, psychologists, correctional officers, every work social worker these people play such an integral role in sustaining the development in society, because if people are not well it, everything else goes a wire, everything else is messed up. So I believe, really and truly, um, people need to recognize that um, we play an integral role and that more needs to be done in terms of how we, in terms of getting more of us, getting more counselors in the schools, getting more social workers in the schools, Addressing the issues at the community level. There's a lot more that needs to be done. There's a lot, lot, lot more needs to be done.
Speaker 2:Um, but what Truly is is is important, is a fulfillment that you get, as I say to a lot of persons working in these types of fields are calling. It's more than academic. It is a calling because not everybody can do it, because it demands certain skills, certain soft skills that, um, a lot of people find challenging to to, to, to um to acquire, and not everybody is killed at dealing with people and um. So look at it this way when you have impacted these lives and you have transformed these lives, you're not only transforming individually. I've transformed the family, I've transformed the community and the nation. So the seeds that you have sown grew up to be trees that bear fruit, and it is far reaching, far, far reaching. You remember I told you about my guidance counselor? Do you know that the other day, when I completed my Um education and training diploma, she was my supervisor?
Speaker 2:So, and I'm talking about like 20, probably 20 years later. These things, when we look at these things, are how impactful we can influence lives of people. Right, it is. It is really um, dynamic, it is really awesome. You know, as I said to you, there are sometimes that I see Youngsters on the road and they remember you, they remember from the correctional institution. I'm say, mr Montague, I'm gonna say how are you doing? I hope you're, you're staying away from bad company and stuff like that. And when you see that they're really making effort, them going, them going back to school, them, I mean no, no more fulfilling like that. There's nothing that really gives you a sense of achievement. Um, like that, because you're instilling in in people's lives and I think that has more eternal value. Yes, we need money, yes, we need to pay it well, but I'm talking about that. There's a greater meaning and value that not even monica by sometimes.
Speaker 1:Sometimes All right what in what ways do you believe Um ordinary citizens can participate? I mean, for me, and what this particular podcast is Advocating for, is a whole society approach, and a whole society approach. We do have persons like you and I we're social workers, we're guidance counselors, were behavior specialists, that we, in a sense, we dedicate our lives to this area, but not everybody is called, as you say, to dedicate their lives in this way to this area.
Speaker 1:Yet we are all able to contribute. What are some of the ways you believe just the everyday citizen can contribute to violence reduction?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, um, as I tell them, a lot of these organizations need volunteers, um, youth clubs. You don't necessarily have to be the person doing the counseling, but you can be the person serving the food, serving the meals. You can be the person helping with the games. You can't be the you know everything Matters. You have contributed, you play an important role. You are not insignificant. You are very significant to the process because, in truth, if you are tea, you are hoping to impact the lives of Individuals and communities.
Speaker 2:You have to get everybody involved. Everybody has to be involved and if everybody plays a part, find something to do, I mean contribute in some way. I mean it goes a far away to really employing people and to really seeing transformation, because it's within that ecosystem. Everybody finds a purpose, finds a meaning. You know, and and think about it, when people recognize that they're a part of a process, them own it, they own it, and when they own it, it will be successful, because they will ensure that it will be successful, because they want it to continue, because they have stopped their names on it. I was a part of this, I helped to do this. Yeah, it is, it is, it is important. So, yeah, that's what I would encourage them to do.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, um, and you know, as I mean, as we close, you know, as we close, what is one thing you would want persons to remember about young people, and young people in this space.
Speaker 2:Yes, young people in this space. They did not make themselves that way. They are products of their own environment. They were born in a particular situation and whatever we feed them we talk about the social learning theory. You understand social copying, social learning. They observe From, as a younger tender, asia been observing this.
Speaker 2:So, to a degree in society we have to take a certain level of responsibility For what has happened to them. What are the value systems that we have embraced as a society? What are we inculcating in them? So, yes, they may take up the gun, yes, they become this, but ask ourselves, look in the mirror, what part how we played generally as a society In what they have become. And when we recognize and see that way, then I think change will happen. Then I think we recognize that if, if we have contributed to that, it means that we can make a turn. We can make a change Right change. The value system is important. Value systems are important in terms of how, what we instill, what we teach them wrong and right and how we live. It's not just about what we say, it's about what we do as a society.
Speaker 1:Mr Monzy.
Speaker 2:I can't.
Speaker 1:Express how much almost all of what you've said I mean, apart from where I have no experience has echoed my own sentiments, and so I really thank you for Just well won, your commitment to this space and the work that you're doing, for sharing your own experience, your journey. You know how you, how passionate you are about the areas for the skills and the strategies that you use. Truly, from as I listen to you, I'm like, yes, it is a calling and you have certainly been Determined and I mean what's the word I'm looking for. You have sought to equip yourselves in order to service your people well, so I want to just really thank you for coming and sharing on safer tomorrow podcast. It was a delight having you and I know all my listeners and viewers would have you know really garnered a lot from what you would have shared and yeah.
Speaker 1:So thank you so so much and for those, for my viewers and listeners, thanks for tuning in. Please remember to subscribe to the youtube channel that's safe for tomorrow podcast and to our instagram and facebook page that is safer tomorrow pod. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a good day, yes it was a pleasure. Yes.
