Safer Tomorrow Podcast
The Safer Tomorrow Podcast aims to reduce crime and violence today by raising awareness about solutions while providing practical tips, strategies and stories that inspire and empower change makers and peace seekers (regular citizens) to effect change.
As someone who has conducted research in this area, Dr. Jo is convicted about civil society's role in the crime problem and our responsibility to be part of the solution. Change is possible, and so Safer Tomorrow provides actionable and doable steps, everyone can participate in to create a safer, more compassionate, and equitable world.
When a crime is committed, trust is broken, the person who committed the crime has to prove themselves to earn trust.
But it's not just up to them. We must rethink the way we categorize people who make poor decisions and everything we think we know about them, their story, and their future. We must rebuild broken possibilities and connections and provide new potential. And we must reach out to become the community that helps others walk a healed path.
It may push us out of our comfort zones, but it's within our capacity.
Let's take action and create positive change together.
Safer Tomorrow Podcast
The Church's Role in Reintegration | Apostle Franz Fletcher
When life presents us with a tangle of struggles, it's the stories of profound change that often guide us toward hope. Apostle Franz Fletcher joins us as we unearth the transformative power of restorative justice within inner-city communities, revealing how faith and dedicated service can turn lives around. Once an electrical engineer, Apostle Franz's journey led him to become a minister, shaping a life deeply entrenched in healing the brokenhearted and reducing the roots of crime and violence through his work with the Jamaica Constabulary Force and child diversion programs.
Venturing into the heart of Western Kingston with Church on the Rock, our discussion highlights the church's innovative efforts to foster peace and provide skills training without waiting for government aid. The community's resolve shines through in stories of conflict resolution and empowerment, where local mothers find new opportunities and troubled individuals receive a chance for redemption. These narratives aren't just about individual change—they underscore the collective commitment to nurturing safer and more supportive environments.
Our exploration culminates with personal testimonies and the powerful roles played by mentorship, monitoring, and ministering—the "three Ms" that drive the church's outreach beyond its walls. We reflect on the ripple effects of personal transformation as we connect individuals to essential services and advocate for societal change. And through it all, Apostle Franz's voice serves as a beacon, illuminating the path from personal hardship to a life of purpose and service. Join us to witness the remarkable journeys that reaffirm the potential within each of us to contribute positively to our communities.
Hello and welcome to the safer tomorrow podcast, where we find strategies from around the world to reduce crime and violence and make more peaceful societies in our nation. I am Dr Joe. I am a criminal justice social worker, I'm a criminal justice researcher and community social work educator and I am very passionate and very vested in finding strategies to stem the surge of crime and violence in my nation. Today I have with me a apostle, franz Fletcher. Apostle Franz Fletcher is an electrical engineer by profession. He answered the call of God on his life to enter ministry on October 31st 1993 and was ordained as a minister of the gospel at church on the Rock, kingston, serving as a senior pastor. In October 2015, he was ordained apostle Franz Fletcher, the capacity in which he operates today. A dynamic and energetic speaker with an uncompromising passion for the poor and marginalized, apostle Franz endeavors to meet their needs through his direct and tireless involvement in the inner city communities.
Speaker 1:These communities include the Salva peace big yard, hundred lane, trench town, denim town, tivoli gardens, rima, among others. His commitment to restorative justice and family life counseling is driven by his passion to see lives redeemed and restored. Apostle Franz is the chaplain for the Jamaica Constabulary Force choir and band, a member of the national child diversion program run under the ministry of justice, an active member of the Midhaven Midhaven ministers fraternal and works tirelessly with the fraternal on projects geared at improving the living conditions for persons in the communities served by the fraternal. Wow, thank you so much, apostle Franz Fletcher, for being here. I'm so glad to have you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think your story is really so important for the church, for the nation, at this point in time, and it will give us clues, because sometimes, as we work towards crime and violence reduction, we don't actually know what to do, and so I'm really looking forward to hearing your story and to sharing with the listeners about. You know how you went through your own journey of engaging with persons who were previously involved in criminality, so can you tell us a little bit about that story and your own journey?
Speaker 2:Well, good morning again and thank you for having me. Dr Joanna, my wife and I. It's quite a thing, but I'll compress it. My wife and I are this year, we're married 50 years and but the first 12 years of our marriage was very, very rocky and she had actually filed for divorce and I must confess I was not good husband at all.
Speaker 2:So, basically, the late David Keane of Church on Iraq heard of the situation and he called me, one day and an evening actually, and he invited me up for prayer and all that, and then they fasted and prayed never fasted in my life and of course I went to their home and they prayed and you know, the whole thing was very strange to me because they were speaking in tongues and and all that, and I said, oh my god, what have I got myself into? Anyway, it so happened that that's a Saturday and then the Sunday morning I'm putting on my clothes to go to church when I heard a voice says no, listen to what I'm telling them. And I know it's the Holy Spirit, although I was out of order and disobedient and it's. I heard the Holy Spirit said look, I'm gonna repair the family, I'm gonna repair your life, I'm gonna put things in order, but you must follow what I tell you. So I visited seven churches that morning. Wow, churchy church, churchy church. The last church I drove through has have a piece and I heard a singing on that goes church on Iraq. And I said, okay, that sounds interesting. I didn't know what church was up there, so I drove up. And when I drove up there I saw people and they were dancing, they were praising, they were. I never see people worship God like that, never seen it.
Speaker 2:And then what happened is later, pastor David he gave an invitation, I recommitted my life to the Lord and then they had communion so they ran out of cops. So he know, with his bright self said that, boy, husband and wives must share a cup. Well, me not having a wife to share in a cup because she had filed for divorce and I was not supposed to be within five miles of her and all kind of something. When I look in the corner of my, she is in the church and she's coming towards me with her a cup and I said, boy, this a world war tree? No, because this now got work out. Anyway. She had her half of the little cup. You know those little cups and then I had the other half and that was how the Lord delivered us enough flash in an instant. All the animosity, all the hurt. They were exactly what the Spirit of God told me when I was at home.
Speaker 2:And so here we are now, in this new environment and Apostle David, he asked me to go with him to the inner city and I said, for what? That time guns were barking and all them kind of things don't have remand trench tone and denim tone. And we go to all these places and show me the soft on the belly of our nation which I had no clue about. And I remember there's been several times when we've been there and by the time we leave there and come back up after we, he would pray with the people and I'm observing him, you know, and I'm saying to him I said look faster. God in his mercy has saved my marriage. I get back my family and I don't want to come die out here right now so if you would kindly do something.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'll come with you sometimes. At the time I had my job and all that. But he said, no, god sent you here for a purpose. So I learned a lot about the inner city. I learned about the pain and the suffering and the the way the people are were hurting, and that is where I got my what you'd call it, no all of my information, what God wanted to put into me. And so when he got sick, he had this major stroke and then the, the, the. He was incapacitated and you remember he was out of everything for 12 years. Well, the board asked me and my wife to take on the responsibility of overseeing the church. I never went to no Bible school, I know all I knew was about power generation and all kinds of things, but you see, that time I spent with David was my exposure to the real purpose of my life.
Speaker 2:So I accepted and you know, here we are today. So I was a senior pastor and my wife is, like you know, she's one of the pastors. I had a major operation and they removed one of my kidneys and the phone cancer in it and I said, boy, I got a canvass. Then, you know, you saved my marriage and I know you're gonna make this cancer thing come with me. And they took out the, they removed the, the, the damaged kidney, and they removed the cyst that was cancerous and today I have no cancer, wow. And and also I had a problem with diabetes and that just went. Apparently it went with the get out with the, with the, with the kidney, kidney, yeah. So I have a lot to give God thanks for.
Speaker 2:And then one day, while I was recuperating overseas at my daughter's house, I heard the word spirit says okay, get ready for the shift. I don't need you to be pastoring the church, no more. I need for you to get with the people that are suffering. So from now on, you are going to be involved in that and I will tell you what I want done. I will show you what I want done. I will tell you how exactly you are to do it. So that's how I've been operating. Now, one of the first tests I had was this dear lady she goes to our church, she's a faithful member and she's from trench zone. And she came to me one day and she says you know, my son is in trouble and they're cutting with a gun and a bag of bullets and he, he is at the supreme court to be sentenced today yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean the the the monday, and she's telling me the sunday. I said, well, I'm. I'm so sorry to hear but, pastor, I need for you to come, if you would come to the court. I said me, go to supreme court for what? My not okay, it's done. She says, no, I I need you to be there, I need the support. I said, all right, all right, all right, and meet you there at 9, 30 I think it's a place open at 10 o'clock, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Anyway, we went down there and there was 19 youngsters, all of them on gun crimes, and she. I noticed these guys were all going to be given the mandatory. I think he's had a 17 years or something, and when his name came up, the judge saw me in the court of course I have on a jacket and he says you know, are you here to say something for this young man? I said you're on. I don't know him. He doesn't come to our church. His mother comes to our church, but honestly, I don't know. I don't know what happened. Um, she told me that there was a situation where he was caught with gun and bullet and then the judge, you know he began to question me about what church. I said, well, I'm from church in Iraq, and so on, and so on and so on. And then he went in his chambers and when he came back he gave me the shock of my life, he said. He said that time I was past the fletcher. He said past the fletcher, I've decided to give this boy to you. I tell you, I, I, I'm, I nearly fainted in the court because I don't know what a fella, yeah, um, for a line when could be a renowned gunman. They single, kill me and me, just me. Just get back my family. That don't make a sense, god.
Speaker 2:But anyway, he said, I'm putting him on probation, you are going to make sure that he's in school, that he goes to bed by 8 30, and I expect you to go to his house and make certain you seem in the house and he's in his bed. And I was about to say but your honor, my days are that, don't know. I mean. My children grow big. You know everybody have them, profession and then family, where this one come from, and but I didn't say anything.
Speaker 2:So I left the court with this young man beside me, like my own son and I, I tell you, but I'm still scared. So I said to him I said, son, where do you live? It's same living jungle. Said what jungle. I said all right, we're going to your house now. So I went to his home and the um I realized that every night I have to go down to jungle to see to it he's at home in bed, that he's doing his homework, because it and, by the way, this thing costs us money because we had to pay the fee for his school, we had to buy his books, we had to give him. That is church on Iraq. We we had to do is like my own son. Now, you know, when I called my wife, as she said to me I know I have one son and daughters where he's third, but his second son come from. I said my dear me name. No idea, but I'm just telling you what the court has demanded of me.
Speaker 2:So we took this fella in and he started to go to school, gave a little problem, but not too worry about, and I got some advice from a Reverend Rivers who did a similar program in Boston, massachusetts. And Reverend Rivers heard the story and I called him and he said look, three things mentor him, monitor him and minister to him. The three m's mentor, monitor and minister, so that I started to do that. I got help from some of the men in the church you know who, of course I took carefully select them because nobody wants to go down 8 o'clock or was into jungle. Anyway, he graduated and he is totally stabilized, a model citizen right now.
Speaker 2:So the government now heard, the ministry of justice heard about it and the minister invited me and my wife to come to his office. Well, when we went to his office he met us at the elevator door and hugged us both and says this has never happened in your makeup before. Come, come, tell me what happened. So we go in the minister's office and there were a lot of foreigners in there and I don't know where these people come from. And then he said I invited the United Nations to view and to hear for themselves what what church in Iraq is doing now. And in the back of my head I said we just start, we don't have no experience. Are none the longer the shortage that the United Nations sponsored.
Speaker 2:My wife and I literally sent us to the International Institute for restorative practices in a place called Bethlehem, pennsylvania, the centers on what I call an immersion, where we would be immersed among children that have lost their way and who the court in the United States has put them on probation and they're being fathered or mothered, similar to what I was doing. So we went up there and one of the exciting things we met a doctor, doctor black, from the 70s Adventist Church, and she was there and she was going through the immersion tool. So she got permission from her head and we, we worked together. We came back, we did conferences at the conference center, you know, all over the island and and got the ball rolling with restorative justice. And that's how it began, it's it's, it's. Looking back I said, oh my god, we did all of this extra work come from.
Speaker 2:Then one day the prison authorities called me and said we hear you have a restorative justice program. I said, whoa, we just, we just got back from Bethlehem, pennsylvania, and we're kind of, you know, getting our heads together. No pick, get a team ready and all that. They said well, we have a young man here that is at GP and he's in there for murder and he's 42 years, he's serving and he's on year 18 or 19, something like that, and at the discretion of the court, they have decided to send him to you. I said what, send him to me? We don't want to wait for him to stay. We hold that way work. That don't make no sense. Well, the next thing I know, I see the the department of corrections truck coming up and this lone young man stepped out, no shirt, a little shot, snowshoes and he came into the office and I said God give me grace, because I have to go find somewhere this guy to live. I'm gonna have to have his health checked cuz he come with a file that thick but we can't read that file in one. You know if you always.
Speaker 2:Anyway, what happened is a member of our church was connected with the University of the West Indies and he, he said, all right, that time I was pasta.
Speaker 2:He said pasta, don't worry about it. I have about five men and we are going to find a place for him to live, we're going to get him a bed, we're gonna get bed linen, we're gonna get a stove and you know all that he needs and we're going to buy some clothes. And said, oh my god, all right, fine. So he went to the University and I tested him and I this, but he had eight A level distinctions. Oh, I mean yep, yep, locked away in GP, he did commit the murder, cuz he told me that he was part of the group that did the shooting. What the thing is that the at the discretion of the court and that they apparently knew his background, knew what is education levels and a bit a better use to society outside of prison. So he took an exam at the University of the West Indies and he was accepted full scholarship to do psychology okay he graduated from that, hit up a class and they gave him another scholarship because he wanted to do law.
Speaker 2:He graduated head of the class and he got a job in Montego Bay at the big hospital, you know, the corner regional, and he was there for about two, three years doing well, and we kept in touch with him. Every weekend he would come to Kingston, you know, and we, it again, treat him like a son. I didn't know him before. Then. One day he came here with a young lady and he said he's in love with her and he had engaged her and he wants to get married to her. I said, let me tell you. So you need about five to ten years to go see what's on my note, because this lady I mean, she's a fine looking lady and all that but you need to, you know, provide for her, and I would suggest that you give it some time. Well, he said that, oh, that's not a problem, her family will take care of the expenses of the wedding. And we, they, they, they plan to put us a house that they have. And I said, oh my god, this, a man, have more favor than I could have a free mom. And so what happened is that, you know, I met a young lady and I was counseling them, you know, like marriage counseling and but still really good though to my mind.
Speaker 2:Well, some people came from United States and they were looking over the hospital and their eyes caught him and they were, you know, really satisfied with his work and how he operated and, of course, his resume and all that was quite a thing. I mean psychology plus law, I mean these guys are hot ticket. And basically what happened is that they invited him to go to United States to help in a, in the administrator, like the assistant administrator of a hospital. So when he came and he told me, I said, martha, with your record, me not think it's gonna work.
Speaker 2:Well, he went to a meeting at the embassy and by the time he got to the embassy, I he called me from the embassy and says I getting through as a normal, maybe the person beside you get through. You can't get through. What happened is that God in his infinite mercy and grace, you know, I'm reminded of the verse that says as far as the east is from the West, so far have I removed your sins from you. Yeah, and basically what happened is that his entire record was expunged. It never came up, even from mention, and they had a lovely wedding.
Speaker 2:It was quite a thing because she came in on a yacht and then, he walked the plank and took her off the yacht and I tell you, the whole wedding I was the officiating minister, you know, but I cried. I cried the whole time and I had to ask the people to forgive me because I could not believe of the loving, kindness and the tend mercy of God to this young man. So they are in United States right now and he has this top job and he's doing extremely well and about, you know, every month or so he would send funds to help any other youth that is in a similar situation, and so that was kind of our baptism then to restorative justice, because I never believed in it. I didn't know in my life, my whole life as an engineer, that God, this is what God would call me to do, but it is. It has become a part of a whole, you know. So right now at church in Iraq we are.
Speaker 2:The Lord really spoke to me about the amount of people that had us crushing up weed in their mind. You know that's all the young men doing. So we link with the police, the JCF, and they are the, the commanding officer at St Andrew North, and the Lord said to us we did a walkthrough of communities just walking with the police and encouraging the people at look, this is not going to go on forever. There's a shift to come into your life and the Lord has sent us here to help you. Right? We're not asking you to join orchard, we simply want to give you a good jumpstart. Okay, so we link with art and we started at NSCA you know our NTSC right, and we started with them and the first hundred people they are all in jobs right now. We did a course with them centered on tourism and cruise ships, attendance and all that, and we weren't even really quick for that, but we found space and and so they are all implied right now.
Speaker 2:So the news has got out that you know we, we are hoping to open an Institute and not charging anybody. I read said we trust God to provide to. You know, trump paid electros and running costs and all that, and so we are about to start the Institute somewhere around September. Well, praise the Lord, my dear, and thank you what it is to God with the glory, because the, the people need beauty instead of ashes. I am instead of mourning, see, and this for a long time, for a long time. That's one of the reasons the Lord put the church here and we I believe the church may stop including us here at church in Iraq. You know, we, we we've been here 39 years.
Speaker 2:I've been at this church for 39 years, but the Lord has recast the vision. Call it vision 2022. He has recast the vision and so we are pursuing this Institute to get the people and not only implied but on it, but employable. You know, with a skill we. We have a great contact with the tourism enhancement fund and they helped us a lot in preparing people. We just had a job fear and I think is 90% of them got jobs immediately after the job fear. So you see, it is.
Speaker 2:It is like strategy. There was a time when you had a billy Graham or a Reinhard Bunky. A lot of people get saved what you have. No God has shifted the strategy. It's the same gospel, okay, but he's not only saving the souls, because a lot of the people some of them are coming to church in Iraq, some of them are going to other churches, but they have meted their lives the Lord. In other words, we don't stipulate if you don't join our church, we can't help you on a cycle. You see, we are representing God, we carry his glory, we carry his power, and what we are doing now is really community transformation. You see, that's where it's at right now in Jamaica, and any church, regardless of denomination, you know, must concentrate on community transformation, you see, so that if any man being Christ, he's a new person, but not only a new person, but a new thinking person, a new outlook in life.
Speaker 2:You know, we did a course here which was funded by the EU, the European Union called social graces, and I am telling you, I got a call from the only school that took it up was was the Tivoli gardens high school? Okay, all the other schools, oh, we don't know, we don't need that. Well, the dinner town police station called and called me one day and said what are they doing with these children? We noticed that the guys are opening the doors for the girls. We noticed that there's a kind of graciousness and a and a gentleness, and the ladies what are doing up there? So I had to tell him we are teaching them social graces, and social graces goes down to the mind, detail, even how to use knife and fog, how to relate, how to treat people, how to deal with conflict. And you know, I this thing has worked so well, so we are now using it and it was birthed by a deacon in this church. Enough, not even a pastor, a deacon. She got a vision and she put it in in in in a folder and the next thing, you know, we got funding through EU for all the schools, but the only school that responded was Tivoli gardens high school.
Speaker 2:And so you know these are the some of the things I'm sharing with you that God is up to something in this great nation of ours. Yeah, he has held back storms, he has held back earthquakes, he has held back natural disasters, because he's waiting on the church to arise with new things, a renewed mind. You know, we're not stuck in the past. We don't want people just come join our church and after them don't answer and everybody back home and go home. I, you know, sit, am I going to Linux on it? That's not church.
Speaker 2:One has to leave the comfort maybe of your own home or something and you go among the people, sit with them, talk with them, listen. How many times we don't listen. You know we talk a lot and we want to get John tree, 16, down and throat. You're a sinner there, hey, that now work again, people have to trust you, people have to see Jesus in you. They have to come in contact with the love of God through you. See, and sometimes it cost us or funds, and another time it cost us funds, time, and you know. So it's it's. It's been an experience for us, but we're still learning. But in the communities we're serving, we see change, tremendous change past the friend.
Speaker 1:You know you have said so many things in your journey. Oh, my word, so one. What's what's key and we're kind of talking about it before is really recognizing that the church is actually doing some you know, so often in this nation, in the nation, in our nation, jamaica. Yeah, you know, many people wonder where is the church?
Speaker 2:the church, is looking out against you know different things, but where?
Speaker 1:is it on the ground, yeah, and what I'm hearing here is that the church is actually doing something, but perhaps the wider society doesn't know. The other thing that I found very interesting about what you are seeing and this is particularly interesting for me because in my dissertation, in my own research, I found that when during the reintegration process, the church is actually a very key and critical resource. Why it was?
Speaker 1:because within the church there are many different types of people, many different people with different resources and background, and they're able to come together to provide in this one space, many different opportunities, support that the, the, the person who is reintegrating, who is returning to the wider society needs and so I'm hearing that again in action in your own story and in your own journey about how the church came together and it was different, for say it wasn't just a puzzle, fletcher that was doing everything.
Speaker 1:You know it was other members of the church that bought into this vision and decided to participate and join and partner with you to helping and supporting the, the young men that you worked with, and that's where you had gaps, where there were things you didn't know, you were able to call on and rely on them and find out, you know to, so that all persons would be able to contribute to their lives.
Speaker 1:What I would love to find out from you is what was the church's response? What was your church's response? How did they respond to taking on these young men?
Speaker 2:Well, I tell you initially, remember, the vision of Church on the Rock is really found in Isaiah 61, verses 1 to 1, 3. You know it's also in Luke 4 and it says the Spirit of the Lord is upon me. That's Jesus himself, because he has anointed me or empowered me to preach a gospel to the poor. He has certainly healed the broken hearted. So, because this is our vision proclaim liberty to captives, recovery of sight to the blind, set out liberty to those that are oppressed, and so on. It wasn't really a shock to them because we have been working in the inner cities ever since the inception, you know. But where I believe, where I believe the thing to call is, god entrusted us with a vision and we did quite a bit of work Western Kingston, you know, and helping the people there and so on. But this time now, with the relaunch of the vision of the house, it is more inclusive. For instance, I've never seen a church with more lawyers, doctors, dentists and other professional people, and yet still you have those who have no skill, but we're all one and together in one place. The key thing is that to be able to recognize the giftings that the Lord has put in each church. You'll be amazed at the people. You know that's sitting in the views. I mean, you have to get to know your people and they begin to see that they're here for a purpose. When the Lord Jesus said, hey, as the Father has sent me, so said are you? Oh, that means all my training in university and all that. It has now come down for me to help another Jamaican. Oh, yes, that is where it's at, and so the church's response, I believe, was quite amazing. But where I think it even pays off more is that there was a problem in Casava Peace, where we are. There were some murders one night and then the police called for the church. Normally the police don't call for church, right, but the police called the church and said look, we need your help, we need to find out what's going on, why so many people had to die. There were 18 murders in one night and three were police and 15 civilians.
Speaker 2:Well, we went over there and spoke with the commanding officer, saint Andrew Noah, and it turned out that there were problems with some fixing of a gully or something and repairing of the gully and the money. It wasn't distributed right, and everybody grabbed gun and all that kind of stuff. But the truth is I got other churches within our fraternal and the churches in the fraternal. Everybody put up between 50 and 100 dollars to clean the gully ourselves, right? So I told the commanding officer, I said, tell the Ministry of Works they must take back whatever they give. Okay, we don't want it, don't pay us nothing, we are going to clean that gully, we are going to defuse the situation. And that was a church. And so we did just that. And we bought skips and you know the skips for the garbage collection, because people throw the garbage in the gully. And the member of parliament also chipped in and helped with some of the skips and what it did.
Speaker 2:When the communities saw Catholic Pentecostal Church of Nara, new Testament Church of God, this no man, the people said from them born. They never see anything like this, and everybody was just in awe, which you know, fulfilling John 17, when the Lord Jesus, father, I pray that they be one. You can imagine, if we all put our hands and hearts together as a church, what we could accomplish, what we could accomplish in this country. And so the other day I heard, you know, there's an optic in the old tourist industry and I was a little annoyed when I heard them say that. Well, the government said that they might bring people from overseas and I said, no way I personally would have a light on the airport road. No, they can't come here. We have people that are bright, that just need an opportunity. And my appeal to all churches, this is a look link with the police, link with the courts, the Ministry of Justice.
Speaker 2:We have got to change this nation, see, and it involves education. It involves, you know, showing people that there's a better way to live. A young lady don't have to have a baby so she can eat a food from a man and then the man dead, gets shot, and then she go have with another man and say, whoa sister, hold on a little bit. How old are your children? Well, they're little. They say all right, you come and learn to do something. We are going to set up a daycare center so your children can be looked after during the days and while you are at school, learning something for yourself A very practical approach.
Speaker 2:Well, you see, that's the only way that we can deal with the problem that we have here. I see where some Haitians came to our island a few days ago, but and my heart goes to them, but we don't want to get like Haiti, we want to. There's enough churches here for a square mile to shoot the whole thinking of our people in this nation. And so, you know, I welcome your program here and what you're doing, because it tells me that there's hope. There is hope for Jamaica. Yes, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Sorry, so while you were working and have been working in these areas, both in the innocence, violence, prevention as well as working with persons who were justice involved. You know a part of the justice system. Yes, what were some of the challenges that you faced, or have faced and are facing in these spaces.
Speaker 2:Well, usually when you go to a community, you have to earn their trust, you know that you have to first.
Speaker 2:Don't go in there with a Bible and start beating your Bible and calling them sinners, which they are all right. The idea is you listen, you hear, you, you, you, you emphasize, you, you, you. For instance, there's I won't call the community. A few of our deacons went with me to our community right and the first person I met was the Don. No, you have to get used to that, because usually one man, or sometimes women, control the area.
Speaker 2:I said what is the greatest problem, boy, past the knowledge, you're in school and they're not immunized. Immediately I got on my phone and I called the public health people. I said there's a community of over 200 children are come run 50 children. They need to be immunized. They from the data and born a jubilee till no one is not all of them born a jubilee. So I don't want to listen to community. Come up here, send that team. They're not even registered at our GD. So when he heard that, his eyes lit up and you know words that go around the community and the last of these children can go school because I don't have no birth certificate.
Speaker 2:So we had everybody come in right and the health people were a little slow in coming, but you know they eventually they came.
Speaker 2:And when I say eventually, we did not week or week and a half, they came, and the past people also came, so that now all those children are immunized, all those children are in school and some of the mothers have been coming over to us and are being taught a skill housekeeping.
Speaker 2:Some of them is food and beverage, some of them are allied health, you know, and it's another thing, but it allied allied health, you know, looking after older folks, and all that because as fast as they graduate, you know, then gone America, but people from doing what I want to do. But the point is that we have a tremendous amount of people that can fill all the jobs and divides in our tourist industry and I'm really happy to God for the way the tourism has been going and I, you know, I pray for the ministry on a herbal minister of tourism every day, because box site is not what it used to be. The whole box site industry has dwindled down considerably. So the thing, the emphasis now is for us to have more hotels or people have more work and we can stop killing each other if we find employment, you know.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, the change of attitude will be done by the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God and what's interesting about your story is that there was a change in attitude in you and then you were able to work with other persons.
Speaker 1:You know their mindsets and there you know how they perceive working in communities, how they put those who are in communities, how they perceive themselves, how they perceive life, you know and what I'm reminded of is that so often the church talk, you know, praise a lot about intervention and divine intervention and that God will do not necessarily, remembering that the church is actually the hands and feet of God.
Speaker 1:They are the divine intervention and so a lot of your story, even just being able to call somebody, call an organization and it's not necessarily that you are doing all of the groundwork, but you are able to connect a community to an organization that provide the services that they absolutely you know one.
Speaker 1:One of the reasons why I really wanted to hear your story is because there are so many practical ways or share your story, I should say there's so many practical ways and opportunities for support that you're, that, what you have just shared with us, you know, empower other pastors and power Christian, all other members to also go into whether it's their community or into other communities or into the prison system. You know or work with formerly incarcerated persons because, again, we tend to have a particular perspective of persons who have gone into the justice system.
Speaker 1:We may think of them as irredeemable they're worthless, they're just you know, there's nothing that we can do to facilitate any type of change, not recognize. You know, there is not a homogenous group, it's not one group that looks the same, that has all the same characteristics and even the worst of them, if we were supposed to go to even, you know, looking at the Bible Paul who was first?
Speaker 1:cute in God's yes, you know he changed and so if we were supposed to look at that as, as a model. You know, in as we think about a church, yes, and expand that to know you know it means that even the persons that we consider the worst can actually change and you know, even listening to your own story of your own kind of redemption and the God redeeming your own family life and speaking to you in this way, it's almost as if you see that same experience that you had you are replicating it.
Speaker 1:You know, in the wider society, in different, yes, and so you saw like I have a second life here engineering, life and now.
Speaker 2:This is your second life that's exactly, you know, because how I think now wasn't wasn't, that, wasn't my thought pattern when I came to church in Iraq. I remember telling Apostle David one day I said why are you making these people your problem? They'll have too much children, but perhaps you know it does have. Every year she has a child and is a different man. And then the man not looking after the child, I say, is a endless loop. And then, you know, he turned to me and he said look, god brought you here to to help me, meaning David King, and he is going to use you.
Speaker 2:And I could never, ever in my life, believe that I would be in any inner city helping nobody at all, because, as far as I'm concerned, they do daily their life and they choose something. I am not a part of that. Well, little did I know that's a purpose God had me here for. And I mean I went to prep school, I went to Wilma's, I went to university, but all that really never mean nothing to what I'm doing right now. Right now, it needed a complete makeover of me to launch into what I'm doing right here at church in Iraq, and I'm telling you something it has been quite a journey and my prayer, my prayer now is that every gathering of believers would take on the challenge. First of all, come out to your church building, go any people are, just try, and you know it took a lot of prayer and fasting, but, yes, god has really rewarded our efforts and it we are discovering that church now on a Sunday is like a gathering where we exalt the Lord, we worship the beauty of His Holiness, but what the real work is outside the church? Get where the people are. You know that's where the real work is. And so here we are, they, they.
Speaker 2:I'm very excited though. I'm excited for my mission because I feel that there is a move of God. There's a fresh wind blowing across Jamaica, a wind of the Holy Spirit, and he's mobilizing. And you know, I have some plans to maybe go all over the island, maybe speak to churches and encourage other ministers said look, you are locked up in your building, break out, carry the church with you, mmm, maybe get some t-shirts, put the name of your church on it and just gonna love upon the people, them because they right now. It's a most difficult time for them and you know the options and not all that great for them, yeah, but God has a way of creating streams in the desert. Yeah, grown dry, but God can make a river flow and the river start flow to me and you. You know so. It's. It's one of my jobs and I've been doing it on a small scale. Us encouraging other pastors, leaders, bishops you know that God is up to something. Let's join him in what he's doing. It's a new thing and a lot of us not accustomed to it, but we need to join him so that this control be saved, in the name of Jesus so, as we close, what I want to ask you to do is to kind of unpack a little bit for me, the three ms yes you know the mentor monitor monitor and
Speaker 2:minister look like in practical terms well, mentoring it's like If it's a male, because you know you put females with females right and males with males. But it's like my son. I'm interested if he has a girlfriend and if a child have a baby. You know it's what's the point of having him coming into the knowledge of Jesus Christ and he has responsibilities out there. Talk to me, let's see how we work this out that that child don't suffer that curse, be broken of poverty over the child. So you know the mentor involves getting involved in a life. They might tell you things that they don't want about it to you. You know men are, and then you know you're mentor, you're counsel. You live by example. You know you have a WhatsApp on a phone. He has a phone. Everybody on WhatsApp are some kind of communication Right. If he gets in trouble with the law, you have a relationship with him.
Speaker 2:And I would tell every pastor to have a relationship with the divisional headquarters in your area. We work very closely with Saint Andrew and all right, very, very closely. And when there is a problem, sometimes it's not guns and bullets, there might be a church. Hey, send some people over. There's a family feud with another family and go and draw an alka and something. So that is the type of thing we do, you know, mentor them. Then the monitoring is literally hovering over them like a mother hen. Some people feel a little crowded but in deep in their heart they love it because they're getting attention. You'll be amazed. All the life that grew up struggling like a loner and then somebody comes and takes some interest and monitors the thing. Let me see how you're getting on the job. Did you get through with that interview? Okay, try this one, you know, try another company and you help them, you encourage them you're monitoring their lives.
Speaker 2:You don't just leave them to the elements. All right. And the next one now is the ministry. You have to tell them about the soul, you see, you have to tell them. If they believe, they believe. If they don't believe, they don't believe. You see, but you can't force anybody to come join your church.
Speaker 2:So the ministry involves spiritual input, Bible reading, explanation of certain things in the scripture, and remember the Holy Spirit is doing His work, you know. So the ministry part of it is not as complicated as we make it, because the Holy Spirit is ahead of us and he would stop in the hearts of the people to receive all that God has. So, before you know it, out of the scripture says, out of our innermost being will flow rivers of living water, and then the person who you're ministering to, out of them becomes flowing living water, touching somebody else in the community. And before you know it, you know a whole batch of people. You actually become we call it like a care group. You know, you become friends.
Speaker 2:I mean, hey, I can walk any hours at night because people know me, and there's a pastor on a platform and then you know, see me again. You know, and we have other pastors and we have other people that are involved deacons and associate pastors and they have groups that help these people. So we do incorporate everybody to mentor, to monitor and to minister the three M's, and it works. It really does. You know. They're not left to their own ends and sometimes you have to correct them and sometimes they fix up, but it makes no sense. They realize they're right, you know.
Speaker 1:And it's a relationship.
Speaker 2:It's a relationship.
Speaker 1:It's not just you coming to say well, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:What are you doing? It is wrong, you know.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I have the right information. That's right.
Speaker 1:But I care about you and in caring about you, you know there is this feedback loop that we both have when you can get information about myself and how I'm interacting with you and others.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:And I mean so what I really love about what you're saying, because this is a paradigm shift.
Speaker 2:And I like that.
Speaker 1:You highlighted that in the past, God focused a lot more on evangelism in a particular way. But the evangelism approach God has shifted in a sense for the season. And he is focused, in a sense, first on transformation, and the truth is, in one way it's the same, because Jesus met people's needs when he went out, he met people's needs and then he would say go and sin no more.
Speaker 1:And even with Reynard you know he would there was healing, so God was dealing with the needs of people, along with the salvation message. So you know, what's so important is that, and what I hear from you. It's just a genuine desire to love and serve Almost with no strings attached, but a part of that love and desire is that you know that there is more. So you know, even if the quality of life improves. Then there is more that perhaps needs to be addressed in somebody's life, and so the mentor, monitor and ministry sounds like it covers the whole man.
Speaker 2:It covers the whole man. That's right, the whole person. That is so true, so thank you.
Speaker 1:so much Is there just one thing you would want the listeners to hear as we close.
Speaker 2:Well, as a Jamaican, put your hands to the floor, get involved. You know you're a member of a church, or maybe you're not even a believer, but you see there's a lot in you as a Jamaican that God would use to help another Jamaican, and you know what you're saying is one one cocoa full basket. So let's just start together and bring a radical change to our society. Yeah, that's basically Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. It was such a great conversation. You know I had anticipated I was really looking forward to very insightful, a lot to learn a lot to take from your own journey. Your own perception and just in terms of the transformation of your mindset and your life experience and how that has translated into how you serve and approach that you take in communities. I really believe that this was an important conversation for those who will hear and listen and truly.
Speaker 1:I hope and pray that the heart that you have about persons being mobilized will come from this episode as well. Yes, thank you so much listeners for joining with us today. I trust you would have heard some really insightful information, as well as as well as discover some practical tools that you could apply with wisdom and discretion. Remember, you can subscribe to the safer tomorrow podcast on YouTube, as well as safer tomorrow pod on Instagram and Facebook, for more information and understanding and hearing more about when other episodes will be released.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much and have a wonderful day.
