Safer Tomorrow Podcast
The Safer Tomorrow Podcast aims to reduce crime and violence today by raising awareness about solutions while providing practical tips, strategies and stories that inspire and empower change makers and peace seekers (regular citizens) to effect change.
As someone who has conducted research in this area, Dr. Jo is convicted about civil society's role in the crime problem and our responsibility to be part of the solution. Change is possible, and so Safer Tomorrow provides actionable and doable steps, everyone can participate in to create a safer, more compassionate, and equitable world.
When a crime is committed, trust is broken, the person who committed the crime has to prove themselves to earn trust.
But it's not just up to them. We must rethink the way we categorize people who make poor decisions and everything we think we know about them, their story, and their future. We must rebuild broken possibilities and connections and provide new potential. And we must reach out to become the community that helps others walk a healed path.
It may push us out of our comfort zones, but it's within our capacity.
Let's take action and create positive change together.
Safer Tomorrow Podcast
United Effort: A Conversation on the National Consensus on Crime | Mr. Lloyd Distant Jr.r
Discover the blueprint for a safer Jamaica as Mr. Lloyd Distant Jr., a pivotal figure in the National Consensus on Crime, joins me on a quest to unpack the complexities of reducing crime, violence, and corruption. Our conversation unveils the collective journey, heavily anchored in data and empirical evidence, and reflects on the transformative potential of education and community involvement. As we navigate the intricate agreements and the eight pillars that form the backbone of this initiative, you'll gain insights into how a focus on social, cultural, and community transformation can genuinely create change in the fabric of Jamaican society.
Mr. Distant and I explore the critical role of civics in shaping the minds of our youth, emphasizing the importance of conflict resolution skills to dismantle systemic crime from its roots. We tackle the challenges of harmonizing a myriad of perspectives to formulate a unified national security approach, and stress the vital need for effective communication and public awareness. This episode is a testament to the power of collaboration across different sectors, and a reminder that enduring change requires the participation and accountability of every Jamaican.
As we round off our discussion, we highlight the tangible progress made through community policing and technological advances such as body-worn cameras for law enforcement. But the journey doesn't end here; with a call to action, we inspire listeners to take a proactive stance within their communities, pushing for accountability and supporting the momentum of positive change. This episode isn't just a conversation; it's a rallying cry for a collective commitment to a future where safety and peace are not just ideals, but the reality for all Jamaicans.
Hi and welcome to the Safer Tomorrow podcast, your resource for strategies to reduce crime and violence and create more peaceful societies. I'm Dr Joe, a social worker hey hey and a criminal justice researcher, and today, on the Safer Tomorrow podcast, we will be speaking with Mr Lloyd W.
Speaker 1:Distant Jr. He is the past president of the Jamaica Chamber of Commerce and he has served as a chairman on many committees over the past 20 years. He is an accomplished business leader with a strong business and technological background, mr Distant. In late 2019, lloyd was selected as the lead for the development of the National Consensus on Crime. The CMARC provides an independent overview of the efficacy and efficiency of the programs under the consensus. Join us today as we have this very interesting discussion on the National Consensus on Crime and the progress it has made.
Speaker 2:Looking forward to having you join me.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to the Safer Tomorrow podcast. I am Dr Joe, a community social work educator and a criminal justice researcher, and this podcast focuses on reducing crime and violence and creating more peaceful societies. Today we have Mr Lloyd Distant, and he is from CMARC, which is a Crime Monitoring Oversight Committee, and his organization is responsible for a huge feat that we are going to be hearing more about later, and I just want to invite him to ask just really share a little bit about himself and what really sparked his interest in this area of developing a national crime consensus. Welcome, mr Distant. Thank you, dr Joe.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me and providing this opportunity to share a bit about the consensus on crime and what we're trying to achieve. First, I do always try to provide the correct context for persons, which is everybody speaks about crime monitoring an oversight committee, but it's actually the consensus monitoring an oversight committee. So, while the consensus is about crime not so much monitoring crime itself as we are monitoring the agreements in the consensus. But we have a quick background, so I won't go through my whole resume, but I'll speak to Sirica in 2018. In 2018, the then president of the private sector organization, howard Mitchell, engaged the partnership council, did some consultation, engaged a partnership council on achieving an agreement. A consensus on crime Did not get as so as there was a collective agreement that it was important. It did not advance beyond that verbatim agreement, largely because some specific steps needed to be taken that were not being advanced by persons in particular positions or roles. I became president of the Jamaica Chamber of Commerce in 2018. So that sort of rolled into my administrative year.
Speaker 2:And Sirica 2019, howard continuing to push and several of us others from the wider civil society got together, engaged the government and the opposition and brought them to a discussion and meeting in August of 2019 that led into a summit in October of 2019. So the prime minister appointed the minister of national security, the then leader of the opposition, dr Peter Phillips. He appointed the opposition spokesperson, fitz Jackson, and the agreement by the persons at the initial summit was to ensure that the consensus itself was informed by data. So it's not about appeal is going to work or this sounds good. It was about let's just get data, let's utilize empirical evidence. That's going to direct the agreements that we'd have had in this consensus because at this point in time, the churches, the private sector, all the private sector organizations Montego Bay Chamber, jamaica Chamber, the PSOJ, jmea they were all on board the two significant church representative groups as a council of churches and the umbrella group of churches. The trade unions all the trade unions were on board. The women's coalition, the youth groups so it was again a broad coalition came together and signed off on this consensus 38 agreements in the main consensus document on the initially seven pillars that go into eight, and I can summarize the eight pillars quickly for you if you wish.
Speaker 2:But this consensus on crime, let's get out of debating what are the things that we should do. Let us have a common understanding of what the issues are and a common understanding of the most important things to achieve this a sustainable reduction in crime and violence. And in my summary, I just wanted to pinpoint the agreement. So the agreement is about a sustainable reduction in crime, violence and corruption. So violence and corruption, by nature are criminal acts as well. But because it is certainly the data indicated that we not only had a crime problem in Jamaica, we had a violence problem that we needed to address and this issue of accountability and corruption was at the very core of part of the lawlessness that existed, so it was said, crime. We have to pull out violence and corruption and understand those two items.
Speaker 2:The issue of sustainability was raised very early. We had three I'm going to say eminent professors, but it's not academic professors Tony Harriott, professor Tony Clayton, dr Elizabeth Ward. These were three people who sat on the working group and these are people who are in the trenches, so it's not just academic and theorists. They understood the challenges in Jamaica and the commissioner did a presentation to us where he showed over several years there have been several interventions special anti-crime task force, acid if you remember those days, the kingfish you see the reductions but we never got sustainable reduction and what everyone recognized is that what was important was not just about a quick reduction, is how do we get a reduction and sustain the reduction over the life of Jamaica. So you asked me to summarize. I gave a little bit more, but I hope that gives you context.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you mentioned, I think, the seven, eight pillars of the yes, could you share that with us please?
Speaker 2:Sure. So what was agreed? You know there's this thing that's called the public health approach. Don't just deal with the symptoms, deal with the cause. And it was very clear that what we required ultimately was a social, cultural and community transformation. So the core pillar, as I mentioned, we started with seven pillars, you know eight, but the core pillar was our own ensuring that we had social, cultural and community transformation and, largely speaking, the work of the National Commission on Violence Prevention was to chart that path forward.
Speaker 2:The other pillars most of the other pillars actually dealt with what I'm going to call the criminal justice ecosystem. So legislations that were necessary was one pillar. So we recognized several legislations. In fact, of the 38 items that were identified, 16 of them had to do with legislation. So it was the biggest area. The legislations do a couple of things. It enables the police to do their work. So the transformation of the Jamaica Constabulary Force was another pillar. Modernizing our justice system another pillar People don't talk about enough was enhancing our correctional services, the penal system.
Speaker 2:How do we rehabilitate persons that get in, that are prosecuted, and how do we rehabilitate them and get them back into society? So that was another pillar. Accountability and corruption it's throughout on its own. Again, we speak about corruption, but a lot of it is really around accountability and then reducing the likelihood of corruption, corrupt acts taking place, and then so I've gone through six. That seventh pillar originally would have been the I'm going to say, informal communities, jamaica we say squatter communities, but it's very clear that a big part of our violence problem had to do with gangs and a lot of those gangs developed out of these squatter communities. So how do we deal with urban regeneration and community urban development and community development? So that would have been the other pillar.
Speaker 2:The eighth pillar that developed had to do with we call it victimization, so typically this issue of crime, violence against children, gender based violence. Those areas probably would have fallen on the social and community and cultural transformation. The data showed two things One, violence the biggest number was gang on gang violence. The second biggest number was domestic violence, and so it was deemed important to say, rather than leave it within the gambit of everything I just pulled that out, and have a very clear focus on this area called victimization. Again, gender-based violence and eliminating violence against children were the two primary areas on the victimization. So that, joanna, and to your listeners and viewers. That would have been the eight pillars that were. I had liked to have been in the consensus and just specific agreements in each of those eight areas.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you. So I mean kind of backtracking a little bit when we think about the number of stakeholders that you were able to bring together. Can you tell us what that buying process was like? Was it challenging, was it difficult to engage persons in developing this consensus?
Speaker 2:You know, persons often spoke about how you were to get the government and the opposition to agree to all of these things and I would say, with the exception of one item, that initial meeting with the leader of the opposition, dr Phillips, and the prime minister, andrew Holness. At the time, there was literally agreement on almost everything in the very first conversation we had back in August of 2019. But we would have had about 70 consultations over a period of about a six month period, because it's not just the stakeholders the private sector, the trade unions, the churches it wasn't just the stakeholders. We also had to speak to other entities. Jamaicans for justice was involved at the time. The PMI would have been involved in some of those conversations, but also the ministry's department and agencies that played a role in fighting crime or dealing with crime so fighting, dealing with crime and so the consultation would have been across 70, a big part of it was gathering information. And then, when we identified the things that we wanted to focus on first, we did a principles document. The principles document generally we believe that crime is bad, we believe that we need social reconstruction, we believe that we need JCF transformation. Those were easy things for everybody to agree with the principles themselves and so the principles behind the consensus we agreed within, I would say, within six weeks.
Speaker 2:But getting that harder work around meeting with the individual groups and I would say the bigger challenges would have been getting everybody and all of civil society on the same page. Again, I don't believe the biggest challenge is, let's just say, don't believe the biggest challenge in some of these conversations was less so around getting the government and the opposition to agree on key things. I think the only challenge was, let's just say, only the primary challenge was this issue of states of emergency and dealing with the utilization of the military. But if you took that one out, getting everyone to acknowledge the root causes of crime and the things that we needed to do to transform, because you have people who just think we need a police state and then you have people with words say, look, the police state is not what we need. We need rehabilitating people who are bad and we just need social transformation.
Speaker 2:But the fact is we need all of these things. It's not one or the other, we need all of these things based on where Jamaica is and our crime or a violent problem has actually become enrouted as part of our culture and getting everyone to first understand that and understand what are the things that are most important, because, as I'm sure you can appreciate and again, listeners and viewers can appreciate, there are thousands of things that we need to do. So this telling it down to the 38 critical things that we needed to agree at this point in time, three years ago, in itself was a challenge as well. So an iterative process, a lot of facilitation I think I can work at the UN anytime I'm ready, because it's not negotiating but I had a lot of support. I mean, there were some key Jamaicans who their names aren't called out in the public very often, but they're really behind the scenes that supported this whole process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean this is a significant amount of work and a lot of data collection, a lot of meetings, a lot of facilitators to negotiate this consensus. So I just want to say congratulations, because it is Dr Joe as I speak about.
Speaker 2:I mean the guidance that was provided by Professor Clayton, professor Harriet Herbert Gayle, who was a part of the working group, but he contributed a lot in one-on-one discussions. Those were very helpful. And again, you're in research so you have an appreciation of this, how much studies and data and information is out there, so it's also going through. Again, I don't have a doctorate or a master's in criminal attorney tonight, but I feel as though I've got a real crash purse in understanding all of this over the period of pulling this data together. But what we did recognize and you opened when you and I were speaking before you spoke about expanding, getting more Jamaicans to embrace what is necessary, because what came out of this is one thing, to have the agreements there was the terms of reference for the consensus monitoring oversight committee was also agreed by everyone, because the recognition is one that we need to track and measure the progress in these areas.
Speaker 2:It's not just about having an agreement to say we're going to do these things, but are they being done?
Speaker 2:And we no need to hold the government and all the stakeholders ourselves as well as the opposition, accountable to supporting the things that are in the agreement, but also we need to get all of Jamaica on board, because you can appreciate if the commissioner, if we say to the commissioner, do these 20 things because they are the most important, and he's doing the 20 things, then let's not distract by seeing the numbers aren't coming down, because we say the numbers are going to come down. We got here in 40 years, so it's not going to take us overnight. So let's appreciate that doing these things ultimately will get us to where we need to be and let us stop having a conversation around the other things that need to be happened. Let's focus initially on these 20 things so we can talk about everything else, because they're all important. But if these are the 20 most important things, let's ensure the 20 most important things are happening, because we're in this for the long haul, not the short term.
Speaker 1:And our conversations.
Speaker 2:We have not done a good as good a job as we should have in communicating and engaging all of Jamaica, and we're going through a process of updating the consensus. No, and a big part of that is ensuring we have a budget to communicate with Jamaica, to say look, I know somebody said the most important thing is to stop people stealing electricity. That's not really the most important thing, but can we get all of us to agree that how we inculcate our children at an early age about how they deal with conflicts is something that we've got to get focused on and we need to put all our efforts, a lot of our efforts, on this next generation that's coming up. So, as we deal with things like inequity, youth unemployment, let's also ensure that we're teaching civics in school. The essence of law and order and rule of law is inculcated in our children. Those are things that we need to embed in how we operate as a society from now and occasionally get off my soapbox so they can talk about this.
Speaker 1:No, no, this is important and, honestly, this is what this podcast is about.
Speaker 1:It really is looking at a whole society approach, because, yes, we can hold the government accountable, we can hold communities accountable, we can hold persons who are specifically involved in criminal activities accountable, but the truth is, as you said, this is a 40-year problem and, in a sense, we have all contributed to the system that upholds crime and violence in this nation.
Speaker 1:And what's important is for us to understand that in Jamaica, we actually have a lot of data around crime and violence, around the nature of the situation, and we now really need to mobilize this in a way, and mobilize this information in a way that can be useful for the everyday man.
Speaker 1:And in some recent conversations I've been having in classes, except for one of the points that we've really been reflecting on is just how important it is to see each one of our roles as significant.
Speaker 1:So, for example, when an individual comes to a government agency, for example, to have a service, to receive a service, and are unable to receive this service that is vital to their existence, this contributes, or this can contribute, to this sense of crime and violence that we have when persons become frustrated because they're unable to meet their needs in the legitimate ways that are provided. And so there are these small micro ways in which all of us can contribute to the situation of crime and violence that we have. And so I think what you are saying here is so important, and I'm so happy to hear that, in this next phase of the national consensus, that you are allocating a budget for communication and awareness, because that really is what is critical. I think, as you said well, a lot of us at times sit on our verandas that we discuss what we believe crime is about, what the national consensus has done a lot of work, working with experts on different levels.
Speaker 1:We're all experts, in a sense, in terms of our own situation to find out, brought these different stakeholders together, brought this kind of negotiated, this kind of common understanding of the pillars and the factors that we need to be focusing on. What would you say was your major challenge in this entire process?
Speaker 2:So the front end conversations, as I said, the front end conversations, the working group would have been the Minister of National Security, the opposition sportsperson of national security, professor Harrier, Professor Clayton, dr Warden and myself. So I'm the new of IDEs all experts in the area and you can appreciate. I mean we have an epidemiologist on one side, you have a criminologist on another side and the theories of the most important things to do, or the views are the most important things to do, the understanding and appreciation of the studies coming out of Colombia and Ireland and all of these other countries. So we had that wide breadth of knowledge. So the biggest challenge really was coming to at the onset, with this smaller working group of six, the initial agreement on the what is more important, most important and why?
Speaker 2:Because again being from these different disciplines, you could any one of them could come up with 50 things that are important and, of course, on the political directorate side, each of them could also come up with 50 things that were most important. So, actually doing that work to distill it down into the most important, most critical things on which we believe we need to get agreement now. So we didn't want to take another year to go through everything and identify 80 things. We said we need an agreement now to at least get started, to at least be on the same page, and then we can expand. So the initial agreement was 38 items. Some of those things have been delivered.
Speaker 2:In some instances, even though it has been delivered, it is what next? So I'll give two examples. So in the Public Bodies and Management Accountability Act right, so how public dealing with the concern around corruption or effective use of state resources? A lot of it would have come down and we'd have heard public boards government boards are not either equipped with the right people or with the best people to provide the expertise necessary. So how do we get that? Well, the Public Bodies and Management Accountability Act was viewed as a huge step in the right direction. So now that the act has been approved, what next? Because just approving the act doesn't get us anywhere. We no need to track have the boards been changed, have they been appointed in the context of the new agreement and then at the next point in time? We no need to track the effectiveness of these boards. And the audit reliance on the auditor general reporting on board compliance of an agency, compliance on delivering on their objectives, are things that need to be in the next agreement.
Speaker 2:Another classic example is that the original consensus spoke to the transformation of the Constable Air Force. So all the agreements in the words, really about the transformation, which for the most part, has been going according to plans some challenges, budgetary and so on, but most part the commission and its team have been delivering on those. But now we don't need to report on the impact of those. So we've invested. We used to invest two to three billion dollars a year in the Ministry of National Security. The budget over the last several years has been closer to 20 billion dollars and again giving credit to the fiscal space created through EPOC and the IMF. So fiscal space created, so we have more money in the budget to a lot to crime reduction and so we're getting 20 billion dollars a year. A lot of it is being invested in the JCF transformation.
Speaker 2:Not that we're investing this money in JCF transformation. What are we seeing in terms of the impact? I mean, are we identifying and prosecuting criminals faster? Are we seeing response time of JCF improved? So those are the kinds of things that we know need to be tracking in the next consensus. So it's an iterative process. Again, I say it all the time 40 years to get to where we are. There are no quick fixes. There's not going to be a miracle. We need, as Jamaicans, we need to do the hard work to achieve that objective.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, this is obviously not a talk shop and you've given us a few snapshots of how it works, but could you tell us on a kind of general basis, how does this the national consensus on crime work? What's the operation?
Speaker 2:Okay. So the agreement to large is around for the most part. The entity that's going to deliver is the government of Jamaica, through ministries, departments and agencies. So in the next iteration we expect to have specific deliverables for the church and the private sector and so on. Because if we're all seeing that something needs to be done, what is not just about the government, what's the role that we are going to play? So 90% of it will be on government, very clearly supported by the opposition. So that's a political directory. But we as stakeholders need to also speak about what we need to deliver.
Speaker 2:So you ask how does it work operationally? So we have the agreements and what CMOT does is that it meets on a monthly basis and we get reports from the Constable of Forest, from the Citizen Security Plans Secretariat, from the Ministry of Justice, from any agency that delivers on items in the agreement, and then we report. So either you're doing it or you're not. Either you're delivering on time or you're not, either you're making the KPIs. So in the private sector we say what gets measured gets done, and that's really what we're doing. So we're trying to measure to ensure that it's getting done and we're not getting done, and we all should collectively hold the agency or the ministry or the minister accountable to the fact that it's not being delivered, which is always one of the biggest challenges. So E-POP, because the IMF specific targets would have been successful because there's a big stick. So there's the carrot, which is the economic performance. Reducing the jet to the GDP actually makes us able to do more with the funds and resources we have. But on the other side, there would have been the big stick of the IMF scene. If you don't do this, then here are the repercussions. In this instance, there is no, the big stick really are the stakeholders holding the government accountable and saying if you don't do it, we're gonna report on the fact that you're not doing it. So, of course, there's always a challenge with that, because that now becomes it can become political, and so we've got to be mindful to stay away from having a political conversation.
Speaker 2:And this really is about. This is what needs to be delivered, and if there's a challenge and let's understand COVID came there was gonna be a challenge around focusing on some of these things, around the budget availability and the resources available to do certain things. So we know, as Jamaicans need to be aware and be I'm gonna use the term be accepting, to be empathetic and provide this space for the government and its agencies to work in a different way and adjust the targets. So we're not gonna be able to achieve 1,000 new recruits in the police force when you're asking them to do a very different kind of work during COVID, when you're saying we can only have, instead of 60 people in the classroom, you can only have 10 people in the classroom. Those are real impacts and so it works by us measuring and being able to hold accountable the agencies, but also to have an engaging conversation around where the challenges are and how we can support them to deliver. So we have got to support the persons who we have asked to deliver. We've got to support them.
Speaker 2:And then that next phase would have been let's reduce the political rhetoric around some of these challenging items. So the National Commission on Violence Prevention one of their recommendations is that we need to reduce carpool punishment generally. Right. So when we say we should not be slapping the children's hands in schools, it is a part of how we have inculcated persons to deal with poor performance or bad behavior, poor behavior, and that's not how we should be doing it. So we shouldn't be using cut-assists to beat our children. Maybe that's not a good reference, but this issue of how our children see us deal with poor performance or how they see us deal with conflicts, we have got to change that for that next generation to come through. So the communication component and the engaging of Jamaica we say engage. Jamaica is one of the three objectives of CMAC and, as I acknowledged, it's an area where we've not done a good enough job with large budgetary challenges. But that communication, engaging all of Jamaica to get them on board definitely is an item that we've got to measure, going into this new consensus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So in terms of you speak about tracking, right, and you spoke on a little bit about some of the principles or items that have actually been done, could you share some of those with us?
Speaker 2:Okay, sure. So there are one primary item I'm gonna say two items on the social and community transformation. One the recommendations from the National Commission on Violence Prevention need to be completed and need to get out there.
Speaker 1:So there's still a lot of work to be done.
Speaker 2:But they came up with nine recommendations last August, which was important to identify and guide the kinds of interventions that will actually make a difference. We and analogy that we use that I've used often is a particular group went to one of the international development partners and said in this community we have children who are being recruited by gangs. They're wayward on the. Let's develop a community center. So people in the community really want and running water, but people thought the community center was most important. So you put in a community center but you don't put in everything around how the community manages that community center. So what ends up happening is the gang take over the community center and they use it as a recruiting establishment to bring in the youngsters. And so the you know Cappy would have spoken about $380 billion. They did a report with $380 billion spent on youth intervention programs over 10 years and it could not measure the impact of more than about 10% of those programs. So this issue of measurement really came to the fore there and it said the programs that need to be implemented, where we need to spend our funds, need to be on the program so that we'll have impact. So National Commission on Violence Prevention recommendations are out. It's considered to be an important step forward to guide the interventions of not only ministries, departments of agencies, but also NGOs or international partners. We want to guide where the funds go On legislations.
Speaker 2:There are things like the firearms act. There are changes to the corrections act that were deemed important, so we need a new corrections act of repeal and replace. However, at this point in time, there are some important things that need to be amended the anti-gang legislation, the independence of MOKO. Those are all things that came through in the. As I said, there are 16 items that were flagged on the legislation. Of those, about eight of those have actually been delivered.
Speaker 2:So some important work, farns Act being on the conversations for 15 years, from the date of the consensus to when the new Farns Act came out was about 18 months. So again, progress in those areas. The Constabulary Force transformation again one of the areas at the end. And you have these very under conversations and these anecdotal statements about the JCF and it keeps saying let's look at the facts, let's look at the data. The police force we have now is hugely different From the police force we had five years ago, much as 10 years ago, and for those Jamaicans who were able to attend and visit the export earlier this year, you would have seen a very different type of professionalism, a very different type of member of the JCF. Not everybody has been transformed, but you can see the directional change in how the recruits are changed, their ability to have conversations, how they interact with the community and the technology that they have available and are using. So don't think that is only the things you see on NCIS, on the TVs, is only in foreign. We have those things locally as well, and so the key items that we have in the transformation of the constable force have been delivered.
Speaker 2:There's still a lot of work that needs to be done, but they've set timelines, they have a project plan, they are clear on what needs to be done and they are implementing it. And I would say that over and over that we ought not to be beating up on the JCF, because they are getting their act together and they are progressing. The on the justice system, there were five agreements. Four of those have actually been delivered in the initials. So there are other things. So the justice reform implementation program it was delivered before the consensus was done, but we don't need a second phase of the implementation program. The chief justice had set targets around reducing the backlog and around case certainty, and the parish courts are meeting all of their targets. In fact, they're actually delivering better than the original objectives.
Speaker 2:The Supreme Court is tracking behind, but again, the fact is that they are measuring it, which means that they know that we really need to improve a huge difference from what would have obtained 10 years ago. But things like restorative justice and expanding restorative justice into more communities the Minister of Justice is doing a good job of expanding that and the work that's being done there how the communities are taking charge of dealing with disruptive behavior in the communities is really changing in those communities where it has been implemented. So there are nine communities now. I'd love it to get to the 15 most challenging communities, but in budgetary challenges and, Dr Jo, you need to start, because I speak up with every single thing.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. This is important because, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking whether it's a lot more happening than we are, and I don't think I mean so. Yes, we may see you in the news, we may hear some of the reports, but I don't know. Not only sometimes you sit down and you listen to it in one sitting. Do you recognize that there actually is a lot of work that is happening behind the scenes?
Speaker 1:And, as Jamaicans, we sit down, unfortunately, and every day there is a murder, some kind of violent acts that we are faced with, and so it becomes more and more urgent to us. Sometimes we feel a bit powerless and we don't see how we can contribute to the reduction efforts, and sometimes, because we can't see the immediate impact on the murders that we are daily seeing in our newspapers and our media, then it seems as though nothing is happening. But as I sit down and listen to you, I'm really thinking about the breadth of things that are happening behind the scenes that I think it's important for us to really sit down and reflect on, because this is a lot of work. I'm thinking to myself when do you see it?
Speaker 2:And I have a business to run. Right, I have a business to run.
Speaker 1:Exactly. So I mean it really is a lot of work and I really think it's important for Jamaica to know and then also for Jamaica to then think about how can we participate, Because, again, it's a whole society approach, and you speak about the importance of the civil society, the importance of church, the trade unions, the private sector, and so there is a. I mean all of us to some extent can fit into one of these areas and therefore can contribute to this larger initiative. So I mean I know you talk about speaking a lot, but I think it's very important and that's why, we're sitting down here so that we can really find out what the national consensus on time is about.
Speaker 1:How does it work, so that we can also know that when things are happening, it is also because it's being pushed by this consensus and then it increases by the broader society. So I know that there was a first phase and you have done some revisions and, I think, some new stakeholder consultations. Can you tell us a little bit about that process in terms of why the second phase and some of the consultations that you had and the revisions that are now being made as a result?
Speaker 2:Certainly. So refreshing and updated consensus was seen important because there's some items where the deadline dates have passed, so it doesn't make sense for me to continue to measure a milestone that has passed. We need to reset new, come to an agreement and reset new timelines. There are also things where we now need to measure that next phase. So I mentioned the Public Bodies and Management and Co-initability Act as an example. So it's something has been, but it's not the ultimate objective, is a first step. So we measure the first step. Let's measure that next step and then to have a more significant focus on impact and outcomes. So, again, the transformation itself is necessary, but we're transforming because we want to achieve better outcomes, or achieve better deliverables, or greater efficiency or effectiveness of our Constable force, or the effectiveness of the legislations dealing with corruptions or the work that's being done in correctional services. So we now need to measure those next phases. So this new again, it's not a new because consensus is a consensus. So we've had a consensus. What we're doing is we're extending it and making it more relevant, but also to refresh an update with new targets. So the era of social community transformation, which is the biggest era we really the initial was just looking for one, a primary differ. Let's see the National Commission on Violence Prevention operational, but it is operational. It has been meeting and it's been getting out its reports and we anticipate a more substantive report coming from that commission sometime in the next couple of months. Well, what now needs to happen is we need to see a coordinated function to actually an agency here the Prime Minister talking about a ministry, whatever it is to really take all of this and to ensure it's being implemented across all the ministries, departments and agencies. So the Ministry of Education has several programs to intervene into communities. The Ministry of Health does. We have the SDC, jsc, we have all of these bodies. What we need is a coordinated function to actually look at what, how these things need to be implemented and to measure what's taking place. So the citizen security plan secretary, funded by the EU, is doing a lot of work. We need to get measurements on those. The private sector has Project STAR. We need to start to look at the effectiveness of that and how do we take the learnings from that and implement it in more communities. So how does that get expanded? So those are the kinds of things that we anticipate will be in the updated consensus, the role of the church, the church groups there's. I anticipate that there's going to be a deliverable for the churches within the consensus, so all Jamaicans should have a deliverable. It's gonna be hard for us to measure and hold every single Jamaican accountable, at least at this juncture, but if we can say, trade unions, here's our expectation of you, churches, here's our expectation of you, it enables us to ensure that there's a collective and collaborative approach, all hands on deck, as you said, all of us joining hands to deliver on these.
Speaker 2:A huge area that I didn't mention before is the correctional services. Again, there have been two studies on what needs to happen in correctional services, at least two studies that we looked at and the boat eight years apart, and the boats said almost the exact same thing in terms of what needs to happen. What would have been presented to us a year and a half ago is clarity from the technical directorate in the ministry to say here are the things that need to take place to reduce recidivism, which is up to about 40%. It's a huge, it's a very high recidivism that we have in Jamaica, so we need to reduce it, but we also need to do a better job of, as we take persons who have been conflicted and incarcerated. We integrate them into society, and so what we need, what we'd like to see in this updated consensus, is a plan very similar to what the Constable Reforced Transformation Plan was like so very detailed, 140 initiatives that we can check, measure and identify the deliverables. We want to see something like that, very similar, for correctional services. We need a new offender management policy to guide the new act. Those are the things that we expect to see there On the part of urban renewal and community regeneration, the ministry of local government and the ministry of economic growth and job creation.
Speaker 2:So the ministry of economic growth and job creation would be focused on ministry of housing, so the other ones that would do an urban development policy. Parish development plans need to be developed for all parishes so we know, both from an urban center standpoint as well as a rural center standpoint, what we need to grow going forward so that we don't upload new informal communities, squatter communities. We don't allow new communities to form like that. But what we also need to do is look at those existing squatter communities. So there's a survey that's in the agreement, that we expect to be in the agreement a squatter survey that needs to be done and an action plan around how we deal with these communities. So we need to regularize them and again reintegrate them into society. So you know all of those we expect to change. I don't expect to see a big change.
Speaker 2:On victimization, there are two, very there are two detail and what we consider to be appropriate studies. One, the national plan of action to eliminate violence against children and the national strategic plan of action to deal with gender-based violence. There are two studies. The first one, the eliminate violence against children, five areas, 33 action items, and the Minister of Education has identified and has appointed a senior director to actually manage that plan. So, again, just to recognize that we've had all of these studies done over time. And one of the biggest things is do we need a new study or do we just need to implement what we know?
Speaker 2:And in implementing what we know, it's important to have somebody sitting at the helm who we can see is it being implemented? Are you tracking? Who are the people who need to deliver? Tell me about the progress that's being made. And the Minister of Education has done it on one side. And for the strategy plan of action to reduce gender-based violence. It is again five areas, 133 initiatives. So it's a big plan. And the Ministry of Culture, gender, entertainment and Sports again has identified a senior director to manage that plan. So in both instances the ministries have done the right thing. So we can be negative or we can look at the positives. Okay, finally, we have somebody who owns the plan as implementing.
Speaker 2:And what I'd say about both of those areas the fact that you have a senior person who's managing the plan the dysfunction that existed where different departments of government weren't talking to each other, is slowly but surely being reduced. So, the Elimination of Violence Against Children, cpfsa, the Victim Services Unit there are about six organizations that were doing different things. They reported to different ministers out doing different things and they weren't talking to each other. Well, can you imagine the huge difference? No, we have an all of government approach where they are meeting once a month to speak about the programs that are taking place, to reduce the inefficiency of overlaps, but also to identify oh, you're doing this, I'm doing this, okay, let us come together, because here's how it can be more effective. So every time I sit down and have some of these conversations, it's like a light bulb goes off and I smell it and I'm like we keep speaking about what's not happening and we need to speak about what's not happening, but we also need to appreciate the fact that there's significant progress taking place and let's get behind assisting and supporting those persons.
Speaker 2:There's a study I'm going off track again there's a study that was done on psychosocial behaviors. Right Forget the exact name of the study, but it was done. It was presented last year. It identified a significant increase in counselors and psychologists in educational institutions and in the presentation the Minister of National Security was there and the State Minister for Finance and Public Service was there. Several PSs were there, but when the number was raised and maybe like 130 million or something like that, to say this is the amount of money that we need to invest over a three-year period the Minister literally turned around and said it's 130 million that we need to deal with this psychosocial challenges that are taking place in the schools.
Speaker 2:There's children under 16 years old. If that's what's needed, then that cannot be the biggest challenge when we have a trillion dollar budget. And he looked across at the Minister of State and she was not interested and said, yeah, let's get it in the budget and it starts it out, but that takes place when you have a collective grouping of persons having the conversation. We need to ensure it gets in the budget and that somebody's appointed to ensure it's spent the way it ought to be spent. But at least we know what needs to be done. We have an agreement and the budget is being identified to take care of it. I mean, when I speak to Dr Warner about it afterwards she's all smashed because she's like I've been speaking about this for 15 years. I'm glad to see it's actually at the forefront.
Speaker 1:Again. This is about implementation. It is definitely and I never I mean I never talk about psychosocial work. I didn't hear the social workers who also do social work.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And part of what came out in this study as well, Dr Joe, is we know that this is what we need to spend to get there, but we also don't have enough resources. There are not enough persons coming out of the tertiary institutions to fill the gaps. So we have a front end problem that we also need to fix. So let us not just say the government is not doing enough. Let us say, okay for us to do everything, we need 130, but we need we only have 50 people who are capable of doing this work. We need 95 people. It's going to take us three, four years to graduate, to get people in and graduate them up, Probably another two years for them to really be have the experience necessary, correct, and so first to get where we need to be again.
Speaker 2:Yes, we should have planned this and we should have been talking about it 20 years ago. We are where we are. Let us fix it now. It's going to be six years before we have the requisite persons in place. Let's talk about what we do in the short term. Do we need to bring in external people from overseas? Whatever that is, let's talk about what we do in the short term before we can have enough Jamaicans to deal with our own problem here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, I do believe that we do have a good amount of persons coming out of the universities. Just being able to retain them. I think that's a huge challenge that we have, because we do have a number of social workers, for example, that we're graduating out of the university of the West Indies, but you would hear, you would find that a number of them do want to go abroad and so we are losing some of our best and brightest here. But yeah, definitely I agree with you.
Speaker 1:We definitely are at a place where there are changes, possible changes happening and we can participate and join this move towards change. So I mean, I've heard a lot today and I must say my heart is glad, you know, it is glad to really hear that this amount of work is happening in Jamaica and I really, really encourage you. And I mean you said it's already, but I just want to undergird just how important it is for the rest of the society to really have a good understanding of what the good national consensus on crime is about and what it has accomplished in such a short space of time and where it is going. And perhaps specific I mean, you know, I guess specific ways in which persons can contribute so that they can see as well that they, as they are participating in the church whatever the church initiatives are or in the public sector or the private sector, they can feel like they are contributing to crime reduction as well.
Speaker 1:And they are part of this initiative. Again, congratulations on all the work that you and your team has have been doing. I mean, it is really and truly phenomenal and I am grateful for the work that you've been doing. So I think, in terms of, as we close, what's that one message that you would want the listeners and viewers to remember as they, as we conclude, so, so a major component of what I see is being actually making a difference is for us to stand up and speak up as Jamaicans.
Speaker 2:So too often we see things happening, return a blind eye or we say that's not my issue, that's not my challenge. If we're all in this, then we all need to take ownership and responsibilities. We all need to take a ownership, stake and take some responsibility, and so I, you know, the tag that people have been using more recently is, you know, stand up, take a stand. I'm not saying, if you see it rather taking place, for you to run over and jump in the middle of it, but to take us to take a stance. If we know that this is what is necessary and the government isn't doing it, then hold them accountable If we know that this is not as necessary and the opposition is speaking against it, then hold them accountable.
Speaker 2:If we see corruption taking place and there needs to be a bribery act and the private sector is in supporting it, then we need to hold the private sector accountable. And so for us all to stand up, for us to in the communities, engaging with the police and providing information, and we I know we speak about the informal culture, but you cannot expect the police to resolve things if people don't provide them with information. Intelligence is important, so we need to take a stand against crime. So as individuals, as Jamaicans it is it's the mindful of the recommendations of the Commission on Violence Prevention, and maybe at some point in time, I can come and share a bit of what I know, or I think it would be great to get Dr Sams Vaughn on it, for her to share the great work that's being done there.
Speaker 2:So, as Jamaicans, I spoke to the service clubs the Lions, rotary, qanis and Optimist clubs and in your social programs, in your projects that you're doing in the communities. Just embrace these recommendations and roll them into how you design your projects, so as individuals and as communities. That's one aspect. The other aspect I would say is you know, engage with the police. They're doing a lot of work on community policing. Share information with them so that they can be more effective in their duties.
Speaker 1:I should have asked this question earlier, but I think I think it warrants a very specific answer. Sometimes we feel as though talking doesn't make any difference, because perhaps our politicians, the government, won't listen to us. What would you say to that comment?
Speaker 2:We need to keep talking. We need to keep talking. There are many times that these consensus could have died and the fact that we keep talking and more voices get added to the conversation is why we're at the place we are now. So I absolutely understand the frustration. I get the skepticism and I delineate between skepticism and cynicism. I can't convert the cynics, so I'm not going to spend time. But if you're skeptic, let us have the conversation and let us speak about the things that will reduce your skepticism and let's track it over time. So the police will never be any different. Okay, you know what? What's important? Okay, I want to see them have body-worn cameras. Okay, so we've finally got the budget and we've identified we need 6,000 body-worn cameras to rotate on ships. We've already purchased 3,000 out of the 6,000. So let us talk about the. Skepticism is one thing. Let's talk about how we get you beyond that skepticism and get the deliverable. So the talking needs to continue.
Speaker 2:Again, dr Joe, I get the frustrations that a lot of us, as Jamaicans, feel that we're hitting our heads against the wall and we talk and nothing is taking place. But we need to keep pushing. Trevor Monroe and I had a conversation around all the work and national integrity action has been doing and the level of frustration that exists. But he very quickly acknowledges that where we were in terms of the institutions that we had 10 years ago or 15 years ago when NIA started, and the institutions and laws we have now are hugely different. So, as a difference we made, yes, are we feeling what we would like? No, but we take us a couple years to get to where we are. Let's take the next couple of years to see the difference.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you so much, mr Distant. Really appreciate having you on and sharing about the national consensus on crime. I truly informative and insightful and I really hope and trust and I know, I believe that the viewers and listeners really, as they sit down and really take in what you've said, can be encouraged will be, encouraged that something is happening in Jamaica, something positive, something good, and we can all get behind the national consensus on crime and play our part in advancing the welfare of Jamaica and, eventually, the whole human race.
Speaker 1:So thank you so much, mr Distant.
Speaker 2:Thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you, viewers, for joining in. Just remember to subscribe to Save For Tomorrow podcast on the YouTube and the Save For Tomorrow pod on Instagram. I look forward to hearing your comments and for us to have a discussion about the national consensus on crime. Have a wonderful day.
