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Safer Tomorrow Podcast
The Safer Tomorrow Podcast aims to reduce crime and violence today by raising awareness about solutions while providing practical tips, strategies and stories that inspire and empower change makers and peace seekers (regular citizens) to effect change.
As someone who has conducted research in this area, Dr. Jo is convicted about civil society's role in the crime problem and our responsibility to be part of the solution. Change is possible, and so Safer Tomorrow provides actionable and doable steps, everyone can participate in to create a safer, more compassionate, and equitable world.
When a crime is committed, trust is broken, the person who committed the crime has to prove themselves to earn trust.
But it's not just up to them. We must rethink the way we categorize people who make poor decisions and everything we think we know about them, their story, and their future. We must rebuild broken possibilities and connections and provide new potential. And we must reach out to become the community that helps others walk a healed path.
It may push us out of our comfort zones, but it's within our capacity.
Let's take action and create positive change together.
Safer Tomorrow Podcast
Beyond Bars: Empowering Formerly Incarcerated Persons to Secure Jobs | Dr. Suzanne Reich
Imagine stepping out of the shadows of a past life and into the light of new opportunities. On the latest Safer Tomorrow podcast, my guest Dr. Suzanne Reich and I peel back the layers of redemption and reformation in the lives of formerly incarcerated individuals. With Dr. Reich's expertise in criminology, we delve into the societal and personal barriers that these individuals face, and how employers can ignite change by recognizing the signs of positive transformation. We navigate through the misconceptions and highlight the potential that lies within each person, as we accentuate the importance of empathy and inclusivity in the workplace.
Reintegration is more than just a buzzword; it's a lifeline. Our conversation meanders through the real stories of those who have reentered society and the employment opportunities that play a critical role in preventing recidivism. We examine the hurdles like education gaps and the stigma of criminal records, and share heartfelt narratives of overcoming these barriers. Employers, take note: face-to-face interactions during interviews can be the key to unlocking the true potential of candidates, offering them the chance to redefine their lives and contribute meaningfully to our communities.
The journey doesn't end at employment; it's just the beginning. We explore the ways in which hiring formerly incarcerated individuals can lead to a cascade of positive outcomes, from the trust built through starting with simple tasks to the unexpected dedication and reliability employers discover. Additionally, we discuss how intermediaries can serve as vital bridges, coaching candidates and facilitating direct communication with potential employers. Join us in embracing the shared responsibility of reintegrating individuals into society and in doing so, curating a safer, more compassionate world. Subscribe and be part of the movement towards meaningful change.
What are the signs of positive change? How can employers know when somebody has changed? What is the importance of this? Join us today as we speak to Dr Susan Rake about recognizing and understanding these signs. Hello, I'm Dr Joe and welcome to the Say For Tomorrow podcast, where we seek to find strategies from around the world to reduce crime and violence and make more peaceful societies. In today's episode, we shift our focus to the transformative journey of formally incarcerated individuals. What are the signals that show their commitments to change? How can employers recognize and value these signals and, most importantly, how can we foster inclusivity? Today we have Dr Susan Rake Can I get that name correct? Rock, rock, rock.
Speaker 2:Rock, rock, rock, rock, rock Rock.
Speaker 1:Dr Susan Rake, and she is a program director for studies in criminology and criminal justice at the University of Southern Queensland. She is also a senior lecturer in criminology and criminal justice and is based in the School of Law and Justice. Susan's substantive area of research concerns the reintegration of those with a criminal record back into society and their associated desistence from crime. In her PhD thesis which I really you know I'm so excited about this topic. Her PhD thesis examined whether and why employers will hire job applicants who have a criminal record, with a particular emphasis on the beliefs employers hold about the capacity for ex-offenders to change and desist from crime and how the assistance from crime is recognized by employers. And this is so critical. And she has done a lot of work with at-risk persons in different communities, as well as persons involved in serious and violent crimes, both in England and Australia and she is from Australia, so welcome, susan. Hello.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for having me so exciting.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is so good to have you, so good to finally be able to talk and discuss this area. I'm really glad. How is the weather over there?
Speaker 2:Over here it's so hot, it's in the summer it's the opposite here it's very cold, in fact. I think. The temperature, we get the temperature and then we get the feels like temperature. So I think this morning it feels like about three degrees. That's centigrade, of course, not Fahrenheit. So, yes, it's chilly, it's chilly here.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, oh, that's lovely. I need to send over some of that chill.
Speaker 2:Oh no, I kind of like the cold weather Actually. No, my actor's just come up. It says it feels like one and a half degrees.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, well, you're inside. So perhaps, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, great. So before we kind of jump into the full conversation, I do want to hear a little bit about how you got into this type of work.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, great question. To start with, this kind of work actually found me. So in my, without going through my full employment history, but in my younger day I was a youth worker and worked in the youth sector for a long time with that risk young people and, in various capacities, young people who were risk of homelessness and things like that. When I first went to university I was working for a youth detention centre, but I mean for a short while, because there's actually a little bit of a sideline story here as to how all of this found me, and that is that I was. I had a little side hustle where I sang in a band for called Soul Engine. It was a very cool band and our lead singer made it into the top 12 of Australian Idol. So when she did that we thought we'll all move to Sydney to capitalise on her profile a little bit.
Speaker 2:And that's when I landed a day job in one of the prisons down there, working in a offending behaviour program for men who had committed sexual offences. And working in that particular program was where I was sort of exposed to the world of criminology. I was studying sociology at the time and I'd done a little bit of criminology sort of stuff, but in the actual practice of it, applied criminology. I absolutely loved it, I really enjoyed the work, and then that's what took me to England where I continued that work and just just fell in love with working with people who others would rather forget.
Speaker 2:I found it really incredibly rewarding. It meets some of the most incredibly talented, intelligent people who unfortunately have most of them have been a situation that they've found themselves in where they've responded in a criminal way, and really any of us could be there. Any single one of us have the capacity to commit a crime, and so I guess hearing the stories and getting the context around why offending occurs just really, really kind of birthed a love of this kind of work in me, and so that's, that was the beginning of where I am now so, and I absolutely love what I do. I'm very privileged to the people that let me in on their lives and in on their stories. It's a real privilege.
Speaker 1:Wow, what a story. So do you still sing? Sometimes, I'm a backing vocalist.
Speaker 2:I'm not a lead vocalist. I like to do the harmony, so okay, okay, nice.
Speaker 1:But you know one of the things that I really well, two things that you mentioned that I thought was really important. One is the strengths. You know just how talented persons are, even though they have been in conflict with the law. We tend to kind of label and have a picture of persons who have been in conflict with the law as persons who are evil, persons who have no talents, and we respond and interact with them like that. And the second thing that I appreciate you pointing out is also that any one of us could be in the same boat. You know. I mean, we had no control over where we were born. In a sense, some of the things you know, some of how we naturally are and some of our experiences, and though we hold many of ourselves in high esteem, we don't know what our triggers are in the fullest extent, you know and even some of the some of the things that you know.
Speaker 1:we think of crime in terms of a lot of straight level crime, but there are other forms of crime that we can also get involved in. But your work is so intriguing to me because I think it is so important to know and understand the system signals, and so I'm just going to ask you first to tell us a little bit about what the system is and then to describe what the system signals me.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 2:So the system is a process, is described as a process, and it's very much understood as a process where somebody is changing their behaviors.
Speaker 2:And so, if we think about it in a context that many of us are maybe more familiar with perhaps some people listening might have tried to give up smoking before or try to eat healthier food or make behavioral changes in their own life. Most people don't just turn the switch on and off and change overnight. It's it's a process where the behavior changes over time in frequency and severity. So whilst somebody might be smoking 10 cigarettes a day, tomorrow they might cut back to nine. So this is this process of decisions, then moving towards the change that they want, to walk to the point where there's a full cessation of that behavior. So they've eventually stopped it all together or they've changed it all together, whatever that habit or behavior is. So it's the same with criminal offending. And so and I think that this is not necessarily as straightforward either as we'd like to think there are some people who have committed some serious crimes, but they've only ever committed one crime. It's not like it's part of their habitual behavior.
Speaker 2:So I think I think in terms of the systems. You know, we tend to think that everybody you know has this need to change their behavior, you know, but it could just be that they've responded in a way in a particular circumstance that ended up that landed them with a criminal record. And I sometimes question does this person actually need to change anything in particular, or was this just an unfortunate sort of outcome of the circumstance? And yet others, because of what you're saying earlier, because of their upbringing, because of what they're exposed to, because of what they've learned, they've learned to respond to life stresses or life pressures in a criminal way. There is a need to relearn responses and there is a need to relearn things like empathy for other people and the impact of your behavior on other people and how to stop and think about what action you're going to take to get a different outcome and all of those sorts of things. And some of that's just those thinking skills, but it's putting it into practice is where the decisions happens, and that's the kind of the challenge is linking the learning with the practice later on. And yeah, and so it is, it's practice. You've got to practice different behaviors before they become part of your norm, and so that's decisions, that's the process of decisions.
Speaker 2:So decisions signals, then, are the little clues that somebody can send out to others. It's a form of communication. A signal is a message that we send as a form of communication. And so, again, if I was to draw an analogy for you, if we think about a stop sign I don't know what the stop signs look like in your country, but in our country they're a red octagon shape yes, in some countries it's a red circle, but universally it's pretty much a red sign and if I was to show you a red octagon shape without any words written on it, you would tell me that that red shape means stop.
Speaker 2:So that, signal sends a particular message to you because we've attached a meaning to it. But really it's just a red octagon, but we've applied a meaning to it. So it's the same thing. When we're looking at people, what are the behaviors in the things that they're saying to us? That signal who the person is today. So it might be some of their actions that they do so. If somebody is volunteering in the community, for example, that suggests to me that this person is a selfless person. They're giving, they care about their community. You know of no sorts of thing. That's a signal. It's giving me a message about the person. If somebody is sitting in front of me and openly telling me about their criminal record and what has led to them committing an offence, that tells me they're courageous. For starters, that takes a lot of courage to do that.
Speaker 2:But it also tells me that they probably have accepted responsibility for the crime that they've committed and they're being honest about it. That takes a lot of courage to do that. So if someone's willing to do that, there's something about that willingness to tell the stories that says to me this person has at least started to move on, if they haven't already left that past behind them, and they're looking for those opportunities to help with that journey. So that's what the system signals are in a nutshell.
Speaker 1:Okay. So I mean, when I hear the system signals, I mean, and when I heard you speaking, what was really coming to my mind was but how do we believe them, you know? So I mean, when we think about persons involved in criminality and criminal activity, what we often think of are people who are deceptive, manipulative, people who cannot be trusted. And so when we think of these signals and we are observing them, we're like, okay, yes, we see them, but how can we believe and trust that these are valid signals that actually represent what we think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that is a good question and I guess it comes down to the proof is in the pudding. So a signal is the actual evidence of a change rather than just somebody's word. So that would be harder to believe If I was to sit here and say I committed a crime once, but I'm a different person now. I would be looking for the evidence of that. So I'll go back to the example of doing some voluntary work in the community. That's inconsistent with criminal offending. So somebody who's doing voluntary work is probably not also offending on the side, because that doesn't go hand in hand with the character of a person who wants to engage in continued offending behaviour.
Speaker 2:So these are the kinds of things that make it more believable. There's also I mean, there's a range of things, but it's what somebody has invested into their life in terms of the cost to them to bring about that change. So even though you know we all want to change in different ways, we all want to grow and change and do different things in our life and be better people, but what kind of time are we investing into that to bring about that change? And that is also a really clear signal. So if I want to get fitter and go to the gym every morning. I've got to embrace the pain of getting up early in the cold and going to the gym and doing that uncomfortable workout and feeling the pain in my body and being out of breath and all those horrible things for the bigger goal. And so that's the signal that I'm actually serious about this. But I can say it all I like, but until I actually do it there's no evidence of that.
Speaker 2:So it's looking for those things that are actually evidence of the desire to change, of the intent to change. But where's the evidence of that? And some can be the cost of that signal. What does it cost that person to change? Have they had to move away from those bad associates and start a whole new friendship circle? That's really hard to do when those bad associates can be drawing you back in, luring you back in. So that's a good signal.
Speaker 2:What about education? If you've had a poor education in the past, you know maybe it's been interrupted during the childhood and the education's not great. Engaging in education as an adult can be humiliating for some people. It can be hard. Trying to juggle education with family responsibilities or having a job and all those other things as well can also be really difficult, but somebody's tenacity to stick at that and their dedication to finish it, whatever that education is, that's a good sign that somebody is actually serious about this. So what's the cost to them, what's the investment that they've put into that change is how we can measure whether these signals are real or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, thank you. That was insightful. So a lot of your work has been done with employers. Could you tell me a little bit about what kind of drew you, what interested you about this work with employers and formerly incarcerated persons?
Speaker 2:I guess when I was working in the prison system because I was in offending behaviour programs, I came to learn that people, programs had their merits.
Speaker 2:I'll never disparage programs or anything like that, but I think there's some limitations to them in terms of their long-term effectiveness. And I really came to learn that a lot of people who go to prison quite often will lose their dues, family and loved ones because of the shame that's associated with particularly some forms of crime, and they become very lonely people in the world and they're released to nobody and released to nothing. And then when we look at the rates of recidivism, people coming back, I sort of thought, well, why wouldn't they? There's nothing in the community for people to go to or to support their life on the outside. So I was really, I became really interested in what really matters for success post-release and how can, how can we as a society contribute to that. And so, of course, it got narrowed down to the employer perspective through conversations with my supervisors, as these things do. But that was my bigger interest. You know, like reentry assisted from crime, what else are we doing wrong?
Speaker 2:you know what else can we do, and there was a lot of research around what matters for assistance you know having a job, having responsibilities, having you know pro-social people in your life, having a good education, having good healthcare, somewhere to live all those things matter. But I realised that a person on their own can't necessarily achieve all those things without the involvement of others. It actually involves an active community for those opportunities to be provided, and so in this regard, it involves you know, I can. If I had come out of prison, I could have done all the employment courses and all the education in the world and I could be as motivated as I want to work, but I also need an employer who's willing to give me a go. So it's a two-way street. So there wasn't a lot of research around.
Speaker 2:What's the barrier for employers beyond the fact that you've got a criminal record? We didn't really know too much beyond that in terms of well, why does that matter? What is that? What is it about that criminal record? That really is significant, but how can we overshadow that? Because we can't change a criminal record. That's there, that's. That is a permanent feature of somebody's history, but it doesn't mean it's going to be a permanent feature of their future story. And so how do people gauge what the future looks like for somebody and are they willing to be a part of it by providing them an opportunity for a job, feeling that it's not a risk to do that. But in actual fact it's the opposite it's being part of a really good solution and contributing to a safer society. But starting to get that messaging out, we're very much at the early stages of that, but podcasts like this help, and that's why I love doing them yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, it is so important and it's interesting because sometimes we can think about employment, participating in rehabilitative programs as a privilege, but actually they are a part of this the systems process, this process of leaving a life of crime, leaving behind things that were not helpful, and also it helps to facilitate persons going back and rejoining society and participating and being able to contribute. So what are some of the challenges that formerly incarcerated people tend to face regarding employment and work when they leave?
Speaker 2:So I guess one of the biggest challenges is the fact that a lot of them do have low levels of education and have poor work histories to start with, and then they've got the big gap in their resume as well or their CV that flags something to an employer. So it's overcoming those barriers for an employer to start with, and that usually makes most of them only suitable for those low level entry kind of jobs. But you've got to start somewhere. That's part of the education, like getting to a job, and you start to learn while you're there, and it might not be someone's dream job, but sometimes it's getting any job, as the first job is really important. So that's one of the barriers. I suppose One of the other barriers that I've learned from people that I spend a lot of time with who have come out of prison is the fact that spending time in prison really reduces people's life skills in interesting ways that none of us, if we haven't had that experience, would ever think of in a million years. And I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. And this is one of the things that makes it really hard to engage in employment, and also it's directly related to how long somebody has spent in prison, so the longer they've been inside, the more they lose these skills.
Speaker 2:So I had a friend who had been in prison, who was working with people coming out of prison and supporting them into work, getting them into jobs and being a little bit of a mediator between employers and people getting into work, knowing what the experience is like having been in prison. And there was one particular gentleman who was in his late 30s and he had a number of prison sentences and had gotten his first job in his life in his late 30s and she was supporting him in his job. He kept turning up late for work and the employer had had enough and was just about to fire him. And this friend of mine spoke to the employer and said, because even her like the penny sort of dropped for her, and she said, ah, she said listen, can we work with this man? Because what this will be about is not just time management, but he's never, ever had to use an alarm clock. He's never had to schedule his time in terms of what time he needs to get up to have breakfast, to get ready to catch the bus, to be here. He's never had to think about that because in prison, all your time is managed for you. You get up at the sound of a siren or a bell or something, and she said we don't even get to open our own gates. They open the gates for us, everything is done for us and we're just told what to do, where to be and when, and so he's never had to actually think about these things.
Speaker 2:And that's a skill. We don't think of these things as skills, but they are. And so he had no idea how to actually do this, how to actually be on time, and the employer had absolutely no idea that that's what prison was really like, and that was the impact on his ability to turn up to work on time. So, with that little bit of understanding, the employer was then willing to work with this man and help him build these little life skills that were going to help him be successful in a job. So it's sometimes it's about having a conversation about what's really going on here and understanding how prison impacts people in all of these other ways. Besides these other things that we know there's a gap in your history. There's low levels of education or whatever, but also this experience of being in prison for a long time has just annihilated any skills you have to be able to do these things successfully. Yes, so it can be quite complex.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, okay. So, as we think about employers, and even in this situation, you know, how can employers recognize, you know the distance signals and is there a difference? Okay, so, it can be quite nice. And what do they place different values on specific signals?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this comes down to a little saying that I like to constantly remind people that what someone has done in the past is not who they are, because if that was the case, then we can call I can call you a liar, I can call me a cheat, because we've all done those things, but we don't like to be characterised by some of our less appealing behaviours that we've engaged in in our life. So in terms of recognising decision signals, one of the best things to do is to have a face-to-face conversation with the individual themselves. Job employment agencies have their merits they can certainly connect people and find jobs but look for the opportunity to get in front of that person and have a conversation with them, because when we think about if somebody is being honest or genuine in their representations, a lot of that comes down to body language and tone of voice and the way they present themselves, and that's very difficult to gauge if someone else is doing that on their behalf like a job agency. So my first recommendation would be to seek out an opportunity to talk to that person yourself face-to-face and then allow them, give them the opportunity to tell the story about what led to their crime.
Speaker 2:Their context matters. So a lot of employers that I spoke to said to me basically said if I've got to hear the story behind why they committed their offence nine times out of ten, I may come to the conclusion that you know what I might have done the same thing in that situation. And so it gives that opportunity for empathy to be cultivated between the employer and that person who's looking for a job, who unfortunately does have the criminal record. But it's those stories that make us all realise that we have our own capacity to commit a crime. And so I think that once you can get over those two hurdles, get a sense of the person and hear their story, the rest is usually sort of smooth sailing.
Speaker 2:Sometimes that it does depend on the context of the crime or the type of crime. I get that. But even some of the most violent crimes, people can overlook them when they hear the story and get a sense of the person. So I would strongly encourage people to do that and as well, if someone is really looking for a job, that's a really good signal in itself that they're wanting to leave the path behind them and move on and live a better life, and it's a way of giving back. That's also a signal of giving back, which is a big sign of desistence and a changed person.
Speaker 1:So what signals do employers look for when interviewing persons who have no left prison and want a job?
Speaker 2:So it's those things that indicate who the person is. So these are what I was saying before about things that are inconsistent with you. Know how you were saying earlier that when we think of someone who commits crime, we think dishonest, manipulative, all of those things. So they're looking for evidence of people who do honest things and are not manipulative, and genuine people in the community. So this is a signal can be. Volunteer work is a great one, doing some voluntary work in the community, giving back. You get nothing for that, so that's part of that cost. I'm giving something for nothing in return. It's dedication to, maybe, education. So one of the things that I talk to when I do my prison work shop, prison employment workshops I talk to them about using your prison experience to indicate certain qualities about you that an employer wants. So what kind of employee qualities do employers want? They want someone who's honest, someone who's a good problem solver, who's innovative, who got good time management, good you know, whatever.
Speaker 2:So in prison you can use these kinds of stories and these are a lot that I've learned. It's very, very difficult. I don't know what it's like in other countries around the world. I know some countries are a bit easier, but here in the Australian context it's quite difficult to engage in university education because prison is not allowed to get online. They don't have online access to anything, so they have little offline devices. But that makes it very difficult to go and do your research, to write an assignment, when you can't get online and they have to rely on either outside people who are supporting them to print off things and send them in, or the education officers within the prison to do this work for them and help them out. So it's kind of mediated, the way that they do their studies, mediated through other people, and that's really hard because it takes time. You can't just get on the computer today and do a bit of work. You have to think ahead the whole time. You have to constantly be planning ahead and having that forethought and having that, you know that ability to problem solve. So doing that and then completing a degree is enormous. So you can use those kinds of stories, but the devil's in the detail.
Speaker 2:You have to really spell out what it's like to study in prison. It's really difficult for all of these reasons, and so this is how I had to do it and I had to use all of these skills or develop all of these skills to do that successfully. And I've met people who have done that and gotten academic awards from while studying behind bars, because they're so dedicated to doing well in their studies. And I think you know things like that. When you spell it out, you know these are the kinds of signals that employers really take on board as crucial and important and convincing evidence. And when I say convincing I don't mean in a manipulative way, but they do. They want to be convinced. You know like what are the signals and that's really impressive. Those kinds of stories are really impressive. And then there's some good, funny ones. I know that some of the fellows will put metal conductors in their power points and put them in a cup of water to boil the water, to make a cup of tea in their cell, because they don't have candles in their cell, right. So I think, come up with some. I mean, we don't need to do that on the outside.
Speaker 2:When you tell those stories, people's minds are blind. They're like what you do, what? Recently I was in another prison and I was talking to some ladies. I said what are some of the creative things you've done to solve these sorts of problems? They were telling me how they make cakes out of crushed up Oreo cookies and like two or three ingredients and they crush it up, mush it together and put it in the microwave and it makes a cake. It's just amazing, amazing innovation behind bars. And they also they get these containers that their meals are in. They were telling me if you wash that out and put water in it and put it over the top of a toaster and turn the toaster on, it boils the water. Like who would think of these things? The innovation, the creativity behind bars is second to none. So I'm always telling them tell employers those stories. Say I'm a great problem solver. Here's how I solve this problem in prison, for example. I said you will blow their mind and they will love your stories, trust me.
Speaker 1:And this is so important because what this is speaking to is one, an intentionality about your prison experience. Two, really identifying that I am able to manipulate, creatively, manipulate situations to meet the needs that I have and with limited resources, and being able to translate that and use that to sell yourself. Because, essentially, when you're in front, of an employer.
Speaker 1:That's what you're doing you're selling yourself, and so this is important work for the considerations for the justice system, for the institution. So how do we need to think about this a little bit more in terms of an, especially in the Caribbean here and it speaks a lot to again looking at the strengths you know, focusing on the strengths of persons within the justice system, not just focusing on their offense but remembering that they are larger than what they have done.
Speaker 1:So okay, so the employers they identify some of these signals and in your work I've seen a difference between some of the hard and softer skills that they speak to. Could you share a little bit about?
Speaker 2:that, yeah, sure. So the hard skills are those technical skills that you know we can all learn using a computer, sewing a lawn, cooking a meal, you know using utensils. They're all that. They're the hard skills that anybody can learn. A skill with their hands usually is how it goes.
Speaker 2:But the soft skills are those things that we can't see. We can't necessarily not see. You know, provide the evidence of showing somebody. Look what I can do. I made this cake or I threw this plant or whatever. That's a hard skill.
Speaker 2:But soft skills speak more to things like personality traits, and so this is things or communication skills, or the ability to solve conflict, or somebody who's motivated. We can't see motivation, we can only see the indicators of motivation. So these are the signals of motivation, but these are the things that are very difficult to teach people. So you know, I can't teach somebody to be motivated. That's something they have to develop in themselves, because you know how do you? I mean, I can encourage somebody to be motivated and I can try to motivate them, but at the end of the day, that actually comes down to them to foster that in themselves. So to have that already, to have those kinds of qualities already, make it really appealing to employers, because these are the things that make you a good worker. So someone who is motivated, someone who's hardworking, somebody who has good time management skills, good conflict resolution, good problem solving skills, innovative, is reliable, loyal, trustworthy, honest all of those things that employers love. We can't see them. You know, I can't just pull out an artifact and say you know, here's my honesty, look at it. We have to be able to demonstrate them in certain ways. And so that's the soft skills, and they're more important than the hard skills. The employers are quite happy to teach people the hard skill because that's easy, but if you come with a package of those really great soft skills, then that really really goes the long way. And one of those other stories in fact, something like being trustworthy and honest and reliable and loyal how does somebody show those? So one of these examples of you know of trustworthiness, honesty, reliability, loyalty I was talking to a group of ladies in my employment workshop in the prison here in Australia recently and we were talking about how to use your prison experience to make other people think differently about you and about the fact that you've been in prison.
Speaker 2:And so I went around the circle and I was asking them what do any of you have a job here inside the prison? And we had a lady who was a head cook in the kitchen, we had a lady who was doing landscaping, a lady who was in the laundry, like all of these different kinds of things. And I said to the lady, the head cook, and I said, so, what kind of utensils do you use in the kitchen? And she said, oh, you know graters and knives and whatever you know. But when she said knives, I said, oh, I said weapons.
Speaker 2:And she kind of sat back a little bit and almost looked a bit offended but was like where's she going with this? Because they knew I was there for good reason. I wasn't there to be mean. So she's like well, just see where she's going. And she goes. I said they give you tools that could be used as weapons. And she goes yeah, and I said, okay, just hold on to that thought for a minute. And I went to the girl at landscape and I said what do you do and what tools do you use? She goes shovels, lawn mowers, secateurs, hedge trimmers. I said they give you weapons too. And she goes. She's like, yes, I said they give you dangerous tools that could be used as a weapon? She goes, yes.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I said and you're inside a prison. She said yes, and I said to the other girls what does that say about these two ladies? And they said that she's trustworthy. I went bingo use this story to your advantage.
Speaker 2:Say, even though I was in prison for murder which a couple of them were or manslaughter or serious violence, whatever the offense was, I proved myself to be a trustworthy person to the point that the prison would give me these kinds of tools to do my job. You know, even though my past character might suggest that that could be a dangerous move, but it wasn't because I'd proven myself to be trustworthy. Yes, it's something I did. It's not who I am. The prison trusted me with these things while I was inside, and prison can be a really volatile place Like that's a place where you could really be triggered to do something you know and respond in a violent way. So the fact that the prison will trust you with that says a lot.
Speaker 2:But the devil's in the detail. You've got to tell that story in detail to the employer to really draw out that signal to them that you're a trustworthy person. And here's the evidence of it, and so that's that's another great way that you know people can draw out those things that you can't necessarily see. But that's a really, really great example of the fact that you are a trustworthy person and that you never breached that trust. You know that you were always in. The responsibility's got more and greater because of that, and that's also part of that story.
Speaker 1:So is this what you consider? Designing your decision signals? Yes correct.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so thinking very deliberately about what are the things that I can, what are my store, what's my story and what are the examples in my story that can really show I have these qualities. So sometimes you have to start with the end in mind. What would an employer want and that might even change for different jobs. He could be really specific depending on the job. But in general, what do employers want? They want all these things good problems, all these qualities that we've just spoken about. So what are the stories from my life that really highlight I have these qualities.
Speaker 2:It's one thing to sit there and say I'm a trustworthy person or anyone can say that. Where's the evidence of that? And so it's thinking about, deliberately thinking about these kinds of stories and what they say about you. So once people sort of get that concept, there might even be future examples where they're in a situation, say, where they have met with conflict and perhaps once upon a time they always responded violently to conflict because they didn't know any difference. But now they notice that what they do is they go away and they think about it and they wait till they cool down and they think through how am I going to deal with this problem that I have and perhaps they go and seek some advice or they just have a completely different response to that. Well, that shows growth and development and change in the person, and so sometimes it's drawing out the before and after picture as well to show that I actually have really good conflict resolution skills. Now I've learned these during whatever experiences, and here's an example of when I had a conflict and I was able to resolve it really well, where once upon a time I would have just punched that person, which is why I ended up in prison anyway.
Speaker 2:You know, so it's. It's been really creative in itself of thinking of all how all of these things demonstrate the good qualities that you have and then deliberately having them at the ready to show employees these qualities that you have Because they're there, they absolutely there, for 99% of the people have certainly got these qualities. It's drawing them out and using those stories and using that evidence, giving the detail of those stories. Sometimes you even have to spell it out for the employer. I am a trustworthy person. Say those words and this is how I can demonstrate that to you. This is what this is, the responsibilities I was given because I'm trustworthy and really, really spilled it out for them. No one can argue with that.
Speaker 1:So, in your work, have you seen or heard from some of the persons you would have spoken to while incarcerated, feedback of using some of these tools and instructions? Because this is brilliant in terms of designing and being intentional about identifying skill sets that you would have had previously, would have perhaps adapted or taken up, learned my apologies, learned while incarcerated. And then, moving now to communicating this as stories that convince the employer of who you have become, and this is, you know, in a sense changing your public image, changing who you are previously known for and, in a sense, building an alliance with an employer, a gatekeeper into society. So this is really, you know, important, one of the things that you know when persons. Let me ask you the question have you gotten any feedback?
Speaker 2:Oh okay. So in terms of like taking the blueprint that I created and saying I've used this, I've applied it, you know, in that deliberate way. No one's come back and actually said that in that specific. But I've certainly got quite a number in my own network who have gone out and applied these kinds of ideas and landed a job very quickly. Where they have gone to an employer, they've fronted up employers, met them face to face.
Speaker 2:When that conversation arises, they've been able to tell their story, they've been very honest about it and most employers are sort of like, okay, not actually too concerned, which a lot of people may be surprised about, because some of these people have convictions for murder, you know which of what broader society sort of think that makes you a really scary person. But because they've met this person they're like oh you really Okay, that's odd. But you know, don't even get a sense that they're necessarily a scary or dangerous person. So yes, I have quite a few that have used these kinds of approaches and been very successful in their employment endeavors. And yes, it does take courage, but people also recognize that. People recognize the courage it takes to front up and stay. Have that conversation. I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend to walk straight in and say hi, I've got a criminal report and I'm looking for a job. That's almost a bit aggressive. That might actually be a bit of a turn off.
Speaker 2:It is about the way me and it's about the way you frame that story as well, you know. But it's about it's about that honesty and that transparency that people have and getting the sense of the person, and that's always worked. I have one one guy in my network who's just recently got a job in government and it's pretty much his full time first full time job and he's in just in his early forties. He's. He's has spent his time doing quite a bit of study in that time, but he had to have that conversation and and I mean things like government are a bit harder to get into the large organizations that have policies around criminal records, but he was able to overcome that as well and have people advocate for him to get that job. So that was a really, really big success story in terms of where he ended up getting work and that was his transparency and his honesty and his, his willingness to just give them all the documentation they could see, all the dirty laundry. Yeah, he got there. So, yes, it does work.
Speaker 1:And I mean what I'm hearing as well is just how important the face to face is and meeting persons, because that is where some level of empathy is developed. Because, even as we speak about persons who are incarcerated, persons who have committed offenses, and the importance of them developing empathy, you have to think about it from the wider societies and as well who are receiving them. So you know, for them to join us back in society, we also have to develop some level of empathy to be able to understand at times, as you said, some of the circumstances that they may have found themselves in that may have led to their involvement. And again, not not in saying that there is no personal responsibility, but again, just that we are all susceptible to committing offenses in different ways based on the circumstances. So that's right.
Speaker 2:And I'm sorry I was just going to say all of this the community reintegration is everybody's business and I don't think people realise and appreciate that we have an active role to play in helping a person reintegrate after they come out of prison or even with any criminal record. There's a level of reintegration for anyone who has ended up with a criminal record. It's greater for people who come from prison. But once you've got a criminal record, you've got that disqualification, and so all of these opportunities that require somebody else to play their part are really important. And so if we think about it in terms of, if we close those doors to opportunity, we're actually part of the reoffending problem rather than rather than addressing that problem by providing opportunities.
Speaker 2:So if we want to live in a safer society, we have a responsibility to provide the opportunities for people to live a different life and lead their criminal past behind them. We can't just rely on the government to fix the problems. We can't just say that the individual person is all on your shoulders if we're not willing to meet them halfway with those job opportunities, with those adequate housing opportunities, with good health care, with pro-social networks and opportunities to engage in the community in a pro-social way. All of those things take other people to be involved. So we all have a part to play in reintegration and it's everybody's business. It definitely takes in the same way it takes a village to raise a child.
Speaker 2:It takes a community to reintegrate an individual coming out of prison. It's the same concept.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you. So, suzanne, as we close, what practical tips would you give employers who are open to hiring persons, formerly incarcerated persons? What tips would you give them when seeking to employ them? To identify some of these system signals, to build their level of trust in these persons who will be coming to interview, what practical tips would you offer?
Speaker 2:Okay, first one, meet them face to face and get a sense of the person. That would be the first one. Second one allow them to tell the story around what happened that led to their offense in the first place. Context matters, because that is where the empathy can develop. So that would be definitely the first two.
Speaker 2:If there is some level of you know you're wanting to help a person, but you know you're feeling like you're not sure whether there's risk or not. Sometimes it's about having the honest conversation with them as well and saying you know, I've never done this before you can appreciate that I think there could be some risk here. So how about I start you on this job over here? Maybe just a low level entry job where there's little risk for them to steal something? Or, you know, do something that have exposure to the person's customers. Where they think there might be risk there or wherever they think the risk is, minimise that risk in a management kind of a way and allow them the opportunity to prove themselves trustworthy. And then over time they will, and once they have and they show that they're a hard worker, then you can consider other, like greater responsibilities, just like they do in the prisons. So if I reflect back on that lady who was working in the landscaping, when I was talking about this story with her, she said I didn't start in landscaping, that's the job I wanted. She said I had to start. They would only give me a job cleaning the bins. And I'm like, tell me more. Tell me more. I want to know the detail of this story.
Speaker 2:She said well, I hated it, she said, but if I wanted the landscaping job, I had to do the bin cleaning job first. She said so. After about four weeks she said I grew to love it and because I loved it I became the best bin cleaner. So there was something about her attitude changing because she had the opportunity and she knew that this opportunity is going to get me to where I want to go, and so she grew to love the process and then in the end she got to be the landscape gardener and she's living a best life, well, as much as she can in prison but she's having a she's really enjoying it and she's getting a lot out of it and you know there's such a big sense of self-worth and all that.
Speaker 2:But it's sometimes giving the small opportunity first and all the research tells us that when you give somebody an opportunity to have a job with a criminal record, employers report they are usually the best workers, they're the hardest workers, they're the most reliable workers, they're the most trustworthy workers because they're repaying that employer for giving them a second chance with all of those things, because they understand how hard it is to get a job with a criminal record and they don't want to lose it. There's too much at stake here to lose the job. So they give everything and employers report that they are the best workers that they have. So they would be my tips that I'd give employers like be willing to give someone a go and recognise that in doing so you're actually contributing to the solution of reoffending here and helping somebody to move away from that risk of reoffending and ultimately you're helping to create a safer society.
Speaker 1:And what about persons who are helping those? So they're playing that kind of intermediary role that your friend played when the person she was working with was coming late? What kind of practical tips would you give someone like that to help support the person who is applying for the job as well as the employer, because in a sense they're supporting both persons?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think in that way, think of themselves as a coach. So whether that means sitting down with the person with the criminal record and saying, tell me your assistant story and maybe like a role play kind of thing that might that can help to say, well, give me more, what's the detail there? What qualities does that tell about you? So helping that person to really nut out what their story is. So when it comes to telling an employer that it's already there, they're not trying to think of it on the spot, they've already kind of worked through what are the things that I need to showcase here for an employer, for an employer. I would be saying to that mediator person to encourage employers to allow the opportunity to have that conversation face to face, maybe even negotiate with their employer. Is there a low risk opportunity that you can give this person just to give them a go to start with, just to see how they go in the workplace before you might feel more comfortable, to give them a bigger opportunity or give them more responsibility. And I suppose one of the challenges with having that third party person there as a mediator is that I don't know what it's like in other jurisdictions, but in here in the Australian context, job agencies to employers. They're a bit skeptical in terms of what their motivation is to represent a person. So employers tend to think you don't actually care about my business and what my needs are. You're just trying to get people in jobs so that you can get your monthly bonus or your government incentive or keep your funding or whatever it might be. So they don't always think that the employer is acting in their best interest for their business. So I think it's also about having that opportunity to say don't take my word for it, meet this person for yourself, like acknowledging the fact that I understand you might be skeptical. So why don't you meet this person for yourself? This is what I think of them. I think you'll think the same. Give them a go and sort of putting the autonomy back in their head, making the links, but putting the autonomy back in their heads to sort of make their own decision, their own, I guess, judgment of the person, by meeting them first.
Speaker 2:The other, I suppose the other kind of mediating thing that people try to use is references, and these days, again in the Australian context, a lot of employers don't put much value on references because people can say whatever they like in a reference.
Speaker 2:You know I can say, yeah, dr Joe, she's great, she's really good, but actually she works for me and she's a real pain in the neck and I'm trying to get rid of her.
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna give her a really good reference so that someone else employs her and I can be rid of her. So they're very difficult to gauge the honesty of a reference, especially a real reference, unless the person giving it has some kind of high standing in the community or the person is known to the employer themselves so that they can be problematic and they can create what we call noise in the distance signaling environment. So when you're trying to send a signal and there's all this distortion, it's like listening to the radio and there's distortion on the line. That can be distortion because it could be a legitimate signal, but the employers get people of it, so that can make it a bit fuzzy and they might not really get the message that's being sent. So yeah, there's some ways around that and that's probably how some mediators can work. All those third parties can work in the favor of both parties to help those successful outcomes.
Speaker 1:Okay, and for employers who are very hesitant or adamant that they don't want to employ formerly incarcerated persons, what would you say to them?
Speaker 2:I would say, to have a talk to perhaps other employers who have and find out what their experience is. Richard Branson, who was the founder and owner of Virgin Airlines, he actually started a post-prison employment program and it was after he visited an Australian prison. He came out of that experience and said there is an incredible amount of skill and talent that sits behind bars and employers should be looking to prison to employ for their workforce because of their labor. That's where they should be getting it from, because of the skill and the talent that sits behind bars. And so out of that he created a post-prison employment program where he was employing people straight out of prison for Virgin Airlines to do whatever they were doing various jobs. So if it's good enough for Richard Branson and also there's another, I mean people might say, well, you know, richard Branson can afford some loss, but a little local Ma Rampar organization can't, so I'll give you another.
Speaker 2:There's another one in the UK called Timpson Industries. They own the locksmithing business and whatnot key cutting whatever. So they also have a similar program and, yes, they are being employer. But in the last report that I've seen of them that they have written about this experience of employing people, out of 700 that they had employed, only seven had committed another offence of any kind, which is no greater rate than people who haven't had a criminal record in the past and then committed an offence at some point.
Speaker 2:So the point being that, sure, someone might have a criminal record and you think that you know that, you already know that they've committed an offence in the past. But what about the ones who don't have a criminal record that also are at risk of committing an offence? You don't know about them and yet you'd give them a go. So it doesn't actually really say anything about the person. It says something about what they've done in the past and that's pretty much it. So I think probably we overstate the value of what a criminal record says for a lot of people and you know, and what they're missing out on is a really reliable, hardworking, loyal, trustworthy person, because that's who they are. When you give them a second chance, they're missing out on someone that is usually that they would consider to be the best employee because of this stigma that doesn't need to be there.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you for sharing with us how important it is to give persons a second chance, For sharing with us how we can identify, not just through transformation, but persons who are serious about their own change. And thank you for also showing us what's important for us to know about ourselves, what are the qualities we need to have to be the persons that can offer some level of mercy and empathy towards those persons who have committed offenses, who have done things that we think we could not or would not do. But we still have life and the possibilities still. These possibilities still exist.
Speaker 1:There are many persons who would have committed crimes that would look back and be in disbelief that they did what they did, and so just the importance of humility and empathy are some of the characteristics that I'm hearing that are coming out here, and thank you for sharing what the system signals are because, honestly, I think it really is a critical piece of the puzzle of accepting formally incarcerated people. Working with people who have been involved in violent and serious crimes. We want to know, we want to be able to recognize change, and the area of work is so critical for many areas of self, many areas of our identity as people being able to earn, being able to contribute to society, being able to provide for our families, work in place such a key role in life, and so being able to get a job is such a critical aspect of reintegration and pointing out how important and not just the individual who is returning to the wider society's role is, but our role, that we have a role to play. And it wasn't just you didn't speak just about the employers, but you spoke about the persons who supported the formerly incarcerated person. You spoke about those who were advocating on their behalf for the gentleman to get a job.
Speaker 1:Yourself even going into the prisons and speaking and showing persons who are incarcerated women how to design their signals, how to pull out, how to identify strengths within themselves that can be used for employers. And it's not just as you are identifying the strength, it's also doing something for their self-esteem, because it's saying, hey, I'm not my crime, I'm not what I did in the past, I am more than that. And so you are helping them to craft this new picture for themselves and for society, and I think it is really excellent work. So where can people find you If they want to interview you for their own podcast they will need to come and train them.
Speaker 1:Where can they find you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I love this kind of stuff. So, if they, if you Google my name, or actually, maybe I should send you a link, because I have my own podcast which is called I'm not my crime you just said the name of my podcast and season two is on the way out for that. But they can. They can just email me, so I will. I'm happy for you to put the email in the show notes for your podcast I'm assuming you have something like that and just send me an email and let's talk, let's do this thing together and collaborate.
Speaker 1:I love it. Thank you so much, Suzanne. Thank you so much for coming here. Thank you, Jo.
Speaker 2:Such a rich.
Speaker 1:It's such a rich and insightful country. Conversation, very important work. All the best in your work. It's Peacemaker and Peace-eaker Change-maker, you know.
Speaker 2:thank you so much, I did I love it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining in with us Peace-eakers and Change-makers. It was great having you with us. I know you would have learned and gained a lot of insight into this particular area. Just remember to subscribe to our YouTube channel that is safe for tomorrow on YouTube and you'll be able to hear this and other podcast episodes that will come out in the future. Also, you may be able to subscribe to our Instagram page that is safe for tomorrow pod on Instagram and Facebook. You can also reach us at our email address that's safefortomorrowpodcastcom.
Speaker 1:We would love to hear from you and we really want to see a change in our nation and in the way we serve and think about persons who have committed offenses, because that's the only way we are going to reduce the incidences of crime and violence in our nations and reduce the incidents of recidivism. And that really speaks to the importance of true reintegration, and that is joining together and allowing and facilitating persons who have been in conflict with the law to participate in society in the same way we do. So thank you so much and have a good day.
Speaker 2:Bye, thank you.
Speaker 1:I'll see you later.
