Safer Tomorrow Podcast
The Safer Tomorrow Podcast aims to reduce crime and violence today by raising awareness about solutions while providing practical tips, strategies and stories that inspire and empower change makers and peace seekers (regular citizens) to effect change.
As someone who has conducted research in this area, Dr. Jo is convicted about civil society's role in the crime problem and our responsibility to be part of the solution. Change is possible, and so Safer Tomorrow provides actionable and doable steps, everyone can participate in to create a safer, more compassionate, and equitable world.
When a crime is committed, trust is broken, the person who committed the crime has to prove themselves to earn trust.
But it's not just up to them. We must rethink the way we categorize people who make poor decisions and everything we think we know about them, their story, and their future. We must rebuild broken possibilities and connections and provide new potential. And we must reach out to become the community that helps others walk a healed path.
It may push us out of our comfort zones, but it's within our capacity.
Let's take action and create positive change together.
Safer Tomorrow Podcast
Transformative Support Systems: From Incarcerated Youth to Beacon of Change
Have you ever pondered upon the profound impact of support systems and belief shifts in the life of a formerly incarcerated individual? You're in for a real thoughtful treat as we journey around the intricacies of reducing crime and violence with Desmond Brown, CEO, and founder of Spark to Life. Brown's intriguing transition from a troubled youth in East London to an ordained youth pastor and now spearheading an award-winning reentry organization is a reflection of the possible transformation with the right intervention. Through Spark to Life, Desmond and his team extend detached, preventative, and therapeutic case work services to hundreds of individuals.
We pull back the curtain on the harsh realities faced by formerly incarcerated youth and adults, especially those hailing from Black, Asian, and ethnic minority communities. We delve deep into the disproportionate representation of African Caribbean males in the criminal justice system and the uphill battle they face to access basic resources like housing, employment, and education. The conversation takes an enlightening turn as we emphasize the transformative potential that lies within support systems, shifts in belief, stable relationships, and finding work or volunteering.
The episode wraps with a robust discussion on community solutions and support. We underline the importance of clinical supervision, supervision, and reflective practice in ensuring staff welfare and how those with lived experiences can contribute to the solutions. The conversation doesn't shy away from embracing spirituality, exploring the power of prayer in effecting supernatural change within the community. Join us for this inspiring and thought-stimulating conversation as we navigate the multifaceted approach to reducing crime and violence and promoting peace in our societies.
Hi and welcome to the Safe for Tomorrow podcast, your resource for reducing crime and violence and making more peaceful societies. I'm Dr Joe. I'm a community social work educator and a criminal justice researcher, and I am very passionate about finding strategies to reduce crime and violence in my nation, jamaica, the Caribbean and the world. So stay tuned as we talk to Desmond Brown about his reentry organization called Spark to Life. Join us. Hi and welcome to the Safe for Tomorrow podcast. I am Dr Joe and today we have with us Des Brown. He is the CEO and founder of Spark to Life, and Spark to Life is a reentry organization. Well, it's not just a reentry organization. This is an organization, an award-winning organization that is faith-based, not faith-biased, a charity working with medium to high-risk young people and adults. Welcome, des.
Speaker 2:Hiya, and it's really good to have and spend some time here with you, dr Joe.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited. I've known you for some years now. We work together a bit in the communities and I'm so privileged and honored to be able to hear more and share more of your story through this platform. So before we kind of delve into what Spark to Life is about and how it serves, could you share with us a little bit about how you ended up in this space, what brought you to this position and being the CEO of Spark to Life?
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I grew up in East London and in my teen years got caught up in criminal activity and, sadly, through a violent offence, ended up going through the criminal justice system and was charged for manslaughter. It was in that period of my life that I came through to faith. So I wasn't brought up in a Christian home, but faith really shifted my moral compass and it kind of led me getting more involved in kind of social action and working with initially homeless people, then finding my way becoming a youth worker in a church in East London and then finally becoming an ordained minister through a 70s of God as a youth pastor. And it was in that period going back now to 2006,. Excuse me that I wanted to work with disaffected young people, not necessarily in a church context, but more so in the community, and I was approached by a police officer in London concerning my personal story and my journey and they asked would I be willing to share it? And I did and it had a significant impact, so much so that they said could I run a programme across certain schools? And I had to think of a name.
Speaker 2:And so Spark to Life started as a project within a church context and as years went by, from 2006 to 2014,. It began to grow, so I was running the youth ministry, running this project, and in the end I couldn't run both, but I really felt a call to become the director and continue to lead excuse me Spark to Life. To cut a long story short, I kind of transitioned. I moved away from youth ministry within a church in-house context and looked at doing ministry more within the community context and, yeah, became the CEO of Spark to Life, which stands for sharing positive and relevant keys to life, and here we are in 2023. Lots has happened since then and no doubt we'll go into some of that, but here I am now, leading a thriving, fully functioning charity impact in what I would say secular space.
Speaker 1:Yes, can you tell me about how many persons have been through this organisation? Just tell us a little bit about the demographic you serve and some of the services you provide.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a big question. I'll try and keep it as concise as possible. I mean, in short, at the moment we probably see 350 young people stroke young adults every week, one to one, and that's across nine different boroughs in London. We also work within a few different counties outside of London and we have 30, or equivalent to 30, full-time staff, including myself. And, yeah, a lot of what we do is in kind of three areas. One is well, you could actually say four, and I'll explain the fourth one. One is detached work, which is going into hotspots in certain parts of London, two boroughs specifically, and that's working with young people that are involved in criminal activity or could be pulled into criminal activity. We do a lot of schools work, which is more a preventative model, but specifically looking at individuals that may be on the verge of being excluded from mainstream school or the behaviour in school is such that there's concerns around what that would lead to.
Speaker 2:But I think kind of 50% of our work is what we would call therapeutic case work and that's the one-to-one intense work with individuals that are medium to high risk offenders. We look at certain kind of grades when it comes to risk and when it comes to need. So we would look at individuals that would have universal need, multiple need, complex need or acute need. And so when we look at the therapeutic case work, we're looking at those that would have complex or acute need and would usually be part of a youth offending programme. Hence they've got a history of criminal activity and or probation, again because they've got a history of criminal activity. But for whatever reason, services may find it hard to engage and or if they are engaging, it's quite transactional because of the large case loads that statutory services may have. But what we can offer is a more intensive therapeutic case work model which you could class as kind of more high level mentoring. It's more relationship focused, it's more journeying with individuals and where contracts allow, it would usually be for six months, if not 12 months plus we're journeying with those key individuals I would say across, say, the 350 young people stroke young adults we work with on a weekly basis and again, this is a bit of a straw poll but I would say probably 85% are from Black Asian minority ethnic communities, a high proportion of young Black males, african and Caribbean heritage, and again, that would lean more towards, especially in London where there is issues around disproportionality within the criminal justice system, within school exclusion, within stop and search and even around mental ill health and so being a service provision that is, not only the trustees are all Black African Caribbean heritage, but all of our workers, apart from one, also come from that demographic which kind of places us in a unique space and often can be looked upon as being quite specialist in that cultural competence and cultural sensitivity area of how to work with and engage effectively these service users.
Speaker 2:So that's the kind of the shortened version of what we do. We have probably about 20 different contracts going on all across all these different areas. But that's the and I suppose one of the other areas sorry, before I do forget, I did say there was four and I mentioned three schools, casework and detached. The fourth one is more community. So we do some parent champion work with parents and we do some training now in the community about being trauma aware and also an accredited program to help community volunteers and professionals be accredited in what we would call holistic mentoring.
Speaker 1:Wow, this is quite a lot One of the things I would love for you to unpack for us and just define and explain is what is a little bit more about the complex and acute needs.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, like a lot of services, especially here in the UK, there's always kind of assessment thresholds and that can kind of change in as much as what may have been seen as quite high risk, say, 10 years ago, because more young people may be involved in certain lifestyle choices and services are being stretched. What often means is that you have less provision for a greater demand and so you have to have some selection process of, well, who's going to be able to access that provision, and so what may have seen as really risky behavior 10 years ago may be more medium risk now. And so the way kind of a universal approach to looking at risk. I mentioned the universal, which is general young people and let's just be clear here most of which in every country, are phenomenal, outstanding contributors to society, and we want to champion that and recognize that. We don't want to kind of in any way tarnish young people generally. We are talking about a few people that for various reasons get caught up in criminal activity, and when we begin to look at the drivers we'll see a lot of it isn't necessarily of their own choice. They're born into a world, into a community that we as adults have created or left for them. So we need to be very clear on that. And so when you go beyond the universal and you look at multiple, is that a couple of needs that may exist within family?
Speaker 2:But answering your question specifically around complex and acute needs, you're looking at, you know intersecptions of, you know what's going on within the family so there could be issues. And when you start looking at things like adverse childhood experiences, you're looking at things like is there mental health going on within the families? There's substance misuse going on in the family? Is there prison incarceration, you know, or family members? Is there separation? Is there types of abuse physical, sexual, emotional abuse that's been going on within the family? All of these experiences within a family, for argument's sake, will impinge on a young person and not only that the young person's experience of whether it's risky behavior, whether it's being involved in certain lifestyle choices that can compound some of the family stuff that's going on.
Speaker 2:What happens? Then everything becomes quite complex, especially if and if I was being specific about violence and whether that's violence and just being clear here violence that are affecting young people, not necessarily often the term you know, violence being caused by young people. I think you know sometimes youth violence, but actually violence affecting young people. And when you look at the complexities of that, or the intersections of that, shall I say that creates the complexity. And what can become acute is when you may have somebody who has neurodiverse needs and what happens is they get caught up in a level of criminal activity, they get exploited. Or you got somebody who has, you know, issues around poverty and because of that they get exploited and they may have issues around.
Speaker 2:You know, abuse, whether it's physical or sexual abuse, and that abuse is being caused by, one would say, somebody that they know could be a family member, could be what would have been a so-called friend, and this is where grooming comes into play and what they would call and I don't want to kind of expand it too much, but what they would call traumatic bonding. You know the very people that you have a level of relationship with is the very people that then begin to take advantage, exploit and abuse you, and so you know the closest is going to whoa. You know many people would be able to familiarize themselves with. It's like a domestic violence relationship. You know there's a relationship there. You know in one hand they're a friend, one hand they're a lover, one hand they're a carer and on the other hand they're exploiting, taking advantage. And that's when you begin to move into what I would call complex and acute need, depending now on all the other intersections that I mentioned around mental health, substance misuse, family separation, prison, incarceration, you know, poverty, etc. Etc.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you. So you spoke about persons of African descent and Asian descent being disproportionately represented in this area. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think if you're looking at and again, there's enough data and statistics out there I remember many people who have done research, especially internationally or within the UK, will be very familiar with David Lambie in 2017 doing the Lambie Review, which was a report by the then Prime Minister. I think it was Theresa May asking him to review disproportionality, stroke, what I would call now institutional racism within various sections of the criminal justice journey. So, whether that's you know, when they go into custody, when they're sentenced, when they find themselves in prison, etc. What they didn't look at specifically but there is data is necessarily stop and search and their involvement with police. But within all these sectors and within all these institutions bearing in mind, for instance, there's 3% of the UK or thereabouts is African Caribbean heritage when you're looking at things like prison incarceration, when you're looking at, for argument's sake, black age minority ethnic across the country, within the UK, you're looking at kind of around 16% 17% of the population.
Speaker 2:When you start looking at data around prison and when you start looking at data around stop and search and when you start looking at data around school exclusion, you're looking at like 24%, 25%, and when you're looking at youth offending institutes, it goes a lot higher.
Speaker 2:So those under the age of 16, for argument's sake, or there's a smaller number in prison, and that's a good thing. That the UK has been able to try and do is stop putting children in prison. But the children that are in prison highly overrepresented with certain communities, hence African Caribbean heritage. So what I would say is, when you look at school exclusion, when you look at prison incarceration, when you look at stop and search data's very clear that African Caribbean males, specifically, are disproportionately represented, so much so that there's got to be a question and David Lamme said this explain the data or reform. And if someone's not going to reform their system, there's questions on the unconscious bias, stroke racism within the system, stroke the people that are making decisions around exclusion, around sentencing, around prison incarceration. More often than not are white males stroke females that may be kind of middle class up, and so you begin to ask the question is the issue the young people or is it the decision makers, and are the policies specifically targeting you know whether it's consciously or unconsciously a specific demographic?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And these are such important points because they don't only relate to the UK, as I reviewed research from the UK, the US, france and even looking at Jamaica, though we are a country that is predominantly of African descent, we still have a class issue and we still that whole institutional I will, you know, call it class issue is something that we also have to look at in terms of who we lock up, who do we incarcerate, you know, and so these are very, very important points. So, but in this journey, and particularly as it relates to former incarcerated persons, what are some of the challenges that formerly incarcerated youth would face once they have returned to society?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, okay. So I think you know there's some key things there. One is definitely around. Accommodation can be a key player in that, although there are discussions and good intentions to try and make sure that no one leaves prison without accommodation. I think that is the goal and that is the goodwill, but the realities are completely different.
Speaker 2:I think also around work, in regards to you know, what opportunities has someone got when they have a criminal record, and also what support have they got to get into work, and a lot of these issues again, are very much around. Well, it all depends on how long have they been in prison, what is their criminal record, etc. Etc. And although there are services that exist, like a lot of things you have to feel, you know there's stuff around confidence, there's stuff around your qualifications, there's stuff around opportunities, and so I think it's just been very clear that sometimes what can be seen as well, there's all these things going on. Are they accessible, who knows about them, etc. And so I think, definitely housing, definitely sorry, opportunities for employment, and I think you know, even when you are in prison, more often than not in preparation, you'd like to think there's educational opportunities, but it's so you know, without being too disingenuous to the system.
Speaker 2:It's not good put it like that and some of that is because of funding. Some of that is because of you know what courses can be run in what prisons and for how long, and is that person going to stay in that prison? Are they going to be moved around? So you can end up in prison for a sentence and the hope is, oh, you can do this course, but that prison may not do that course, and or, if you do, you might get moved to another prison, so the course stops. You may not get funding to do that course.
Speaker 2:So there's all of that, and so that when people come out ID they may not have ID, and ID enables them to get benefits. When they're coming out, they're having to secure benefits, and if they're having to secure benefits, they've not got money for a while. So if they haven't got money for a while, what do they do to get money? So all of these things can have a massive impact on somebody who's been inside for a period of time, to the point that somebody can be inside and I think if it's over six months, if they have got a flat, you can lose your flat, so you can lose what would have been your permanent accommodation or your tenancy, especially if it's your own tenancy, because rent hasn't been paid and there are exceptions. If you're in the know and you've got the right contacts, you can kind of navigate that. But if you're not in the know and you don't have the right contacts, you can come out and you've lost your permanent accommodation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean what you've just described. It can be so overwhelming. And so for persons who, as you've mentioned, may have been in the system for a longer time longer than six months and they're coming into a different society, even if you think about technology and how technology has transformed how society operates, you know they can be totally lost, and so it is usually and typically important to have a support system. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you've seen where support systems are concerned and persons who have returned to the wider society?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think some of our training, underpins by Alfred Adler's what they would call individual psychology, specifically called the inferiority complex, and he looks at three areas, and I'm very simplifying this. So anyone that studied psychology or wants to further look at Alfred Adler's inferiority complex you know, don't message Dr Jones say what he said was, you know, by no means comprehensive, but the three areas and this will be true the three areas are friends, family and purpose. Simplifying it and what I mean by that. When you're looking at support networks and what works, you're looking at, okay, what is someone's friendship circle Good, bad or indifferent because that will have a big influence on either returning to past lifestyles and or having positive connections when they come out.
Speaker 2:I think the big thing is obviously family. Family is massive, whether it's a stable family or not. But you think of the emotional support, practical support, you know, housing support. Again, that's really key when somebody's coming out of prison have they got family and have they got good friends? And for people that have been involved in a lot of criminal activity, whether it's gang related or group offending, and they're returning back to an area where they had those affiliations, sometimes it's not helpful and so being able to relocate in an area that they don't have. That. You've got to get that balance between well, they may not have that then, but have they got their family or have they got any family? So there are some of the kind of, again, issues that one needs to think about.
Speaker 2:And I think, finally, purpose. You know, alfred Adler's whole theory is if you've not got a stable family, your friendships aren't constructive but more destructive and you're not clear on. You know your purpose. Some purpose could be anything from what you want to do in life to who you are. You know, again, all of that will create a level of inferiority, insecurity, low self-esteem, and you can do what they call projected superiority complex, where you will pretend or articulate that you're going to achieve ABC and D and do ABC and D. The bottom line is, you know, through a therapeutic mentoring relationship, you begin to find out that that's just a way of protection. That person actually isn't secure, they're not confident, they're just looking at you know that inferiority complex and you know the key three points of that will really determine whether I think somebody, when they come out, will be able to reintegrate or finding easier to transition back into World as it is for them, then, like you're saying, somebody could have spent ten years inside of when they come out. Technology shifted, you know life's moved on, especially the way technology is reduced. You know we had that big Discussion and points of reflection during COVID. You know there was individuals that were coming out and you know the world wasn't as it was when, or shall I say, pre-covid, and so they're coming out and actually, services aren't open, they can't get access to things, may not be able to contact family, may not be able to access housing in the same way, and so there was a lot of support that really had to go into. Well, what do we do for those that are being released and those are coming out? So I do feel that you know.
Speaker 2:One thing I would say, though and this is from a therapeutic point of view is when you're looking at the importance of relationships, what relationships can do, it can make the stress, because you know, in my I do training around being trauma aware, and there's three types of stress. They talk about tolerable stress, they talk about sorry, they talk about positive stress, tolerable stress and toxic stress. So positive stress is what you and I would maybe experience when we've got a drive-in, test, an exam, etc. That's positive stress. Tolerable stress is when stuff happens but there's a support, there's supported adults or individuals in your world that can make the stress more tolerable. Toxic stress is when you go through those things and you're on your own. So it could be a financial problem, it could be a loss of life, it could be ill health, it could be accommodation, and you're facing those situations and you're on your own. And so what happens? That stress becomes toxic. And For people to cope, they may begin self-medicating or Doing things that help them manage the toxicity of that stress.
Speaker 2:And so when somebody comes out, what helps in our mind is having what we would call, you know, a trusted adult, somebody, a significant other, you know a therapeutic case worker, a Mentor. That makes what is stressful and toxic tolerable, doesn't take it away. But if the form has completed is it makes it more Tolerable. If I can complete the form with somebody who can support me doing it, then me having to do it on my own if I have to go for a job interview, it makes it more possible if I know there's somebody who's championing my corner. Maybe give me the money to travel there, checking in with me, maybe even going with me and waiting outside. You know what that does is. It makes what can be seen as really stressful and overwhelming as tolerable Because there's somebody with me, and that, to me, is key. Whatever part of the world you live in, whatever you're going through, have you got a significant other or a trusted adult, somebody in your world, a family member that's willing to journey with you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, as you describe this, I keep think, as you describe this, I keep thinking about how this is not just important to persons who have, who are reentering society, but it's important to all of us. Once we are going through a stressful situation, it is always better when we have support.
Speaker 1:It is always better when we know we can rely on somebody else and we are not walking alone. You know, even if we want alone time, you know, knowing that somebody is there, that we can call and always, makes the journey that much better and that much easier.
Speaker 1:So in terms in terms of you know, as, as persons you know, consider and think about. You know crime and violence and persons who are involved in criminality. One of the questions are Can people actually change like if you are so involved in violence, can you actually change your life and transformation actually occur? Have you seen this as part of the work that you've done, both for persons who have left the criminal justice system as well as those persons who you would have worked with in the community?
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, and I mean by no means is there one answer, as I'm sure you would appreciate, there's various different factors that come into play. You know, I think one thing that we look at as a Organization that will feed into the answer to that question is we don't believe in behavior modification. You know, behavior modification is people can work a system and often when you look at a lot of institutions, they're looking at trying to modify people's behavior. But one thing I think we need to accept and understand that behavior Comes out of what somebody values is what they see is right and wrong. That often comes out of their belief. So we start from a premise of what is your belief system? And belief isn't necessarily just faith. Belief is very much, you know. Do I believe in myself? Do I believe in society? Do I believe in you know the virtues of society, and not only that. I think some of the question has to be asked is you know what is right and wrong? What is my worldview? And I think we start from a premise of trying to understand where people's worldview is, where their belief system is. What that enables us to begin to understand is what is their value system? And the truth is.
Speaker 2:There's this concept in psychology called phenomenology, and phenomenology is the basis of my experiences, shaped my consciousness. So what you and I experience will determine what we are aware of and how we interpret the world, for one of the better term. So our consciousness, our awareness in life comes from our experiences. And so if someone's had a lot of negative experiences, and whether that's from family members, whether it's from institutions, whether it's through, you know, housing, benefits, finances, etc. Etc. What all of that does is it shapes their view of the world and it becomes their worldview, and I think you know that will then impact their values. What they see is right and wrong. And so I think really we need to start with what is someone's belief, what is someone's values, and doing that means we're starting from when they're at their phenomenology, not our projecting on them our worldview, because I think when we do that, what we're not doing is hearing them. It doesn't mean we condone, it doesn't mean we agree with it, but I think to journey with somebody, you have to try and empathize. So you've got to try and put yourself in their shoes, not to say you're going to live in this, but it's helpful to walk in it. Now.
Speaker 2:We all may have responded different depending on what had happened to us. Our upbringing could have been born into poverty, could have been born through an abusive relationship or that kind of context. Or you know, like I look at my own life, I was quite selfish. I made choices that were very negative, and it wasn't because of my parents, it wasn't because of my upbringing, it was because of maybe there was a lot of pride in me that made me make those selfish decisions. Nonetheless, I think, with the right support and more often than not, when you look at someone's maturity, especially looking from a young person up to, say, the age of 18 to 25, there's enough evidence now to show that you know someone's emotional intelligence for argument's sake, especially in young boys or young men, as it were, doesn't really develop until, say, the age of 25. Slightly different for young females. So you've got to take that into account because sometimes, as he says, when somebody becomes 18, they're an adult, therefore they should know. But science evidently shows that there is still a journey of somebody becoming aware of how their life choices impacts other people. So that emotional intelligence and I think there's a lot of teachable moments that can come into play with young people and young adults that we need to harness and again be present.
Speaker 2:But I also do feel that there are individuals that they get tired of this lifestyle and they want a way out. They want exit, especially those that are quite entrenched, and it's about opportunity. You know, when you think about it, opportunity, some people have made the choices they've made not because they want to but because they've had no opportunity and trying to create more opportunities. So there's a way out and what I can genuinely say, with those that are given the right support, trusted, adult, significant other that will help them through those stressful moments, that they don't become toxic but they're tolerable, but journeying with them, not from my worldview or me projecting on them what I see is right and wrong, but trying to understand where they're at, because once you listen to someone and try and understand, they're more inclined than to hear what you have to say and also accept the opportunities that are presented and knowing that those opportunities may be a starting point and not becoming, you know, too discouraged when somebody, for want of a better term, doesn't go for the opportunity or does it but they sabotage it Because a lot of that again around you know, attachment issues, or around security or around. Do they feel safe? Do they feel that they can achieve it? So it's more about are we willing to still journey with them, even if they sabotage an opportunity that they've been given? Why? Because we believe in them, because we're trying to say to them look, you know, in the long term you can change, and not everyone will, but I think most people can with the right opportunity.
Speaker 2:I have seen it, and it comes through different ways and different means. You know, a teachable moment is when somebody has a child. It's a bit of a wake up moment. Now they've got responsibility. A teachable moment is, you know, when somebody in their family is unwell and they're thinking they need to fix up and fly straight. Or you know, when somebody ends up in prison or when they come out and there is an opportunity there are so many different teachable moments. Or somebody close to them sadly gets seriously injured or wounded and they're thinking do I really want this to be me?
Speaker 2:Yeah to teachable moments, because I think that there are kind of moments in life that causes us to reflect and to, you know, whether that's consciously or even unconsciously, to begin to think is this what I want for my life or is there another opportunity? Or now I have greater responsibility, and it can be good, bad or indifferent. If somebody is a significant other or trusted with them at those teachable moments, it's who's got the voice in their ear. And if somebody who's positive and constructive, it can be a positive teachable moment. And what they're hearing is well, you know life has really dealt me a bad hand and you know everything's against me and the people around them in their world is of that thinking and of that lifestyle. It's do-for-self, it's, you know, dog-eat-dog, it's, you know, kind of. If you don't do this, the world's going to step on you. Then the likelihood is that's how you're going to respond.
Speaker 1:Do you have any examples of a success story or a story that didn't really an experience, somebody's life that didn't really go how you had hoped that you could share with us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot, in all fairness I think. I think I mean there's individuals and I speak generally. I mean there's lots of kind of case studies that we've got. But if I was to encapsulate some of those case studies, especially for some of the younger people that we work with, under 18s, for argument's sake, bearing in mind, we're looking at the kind of social context.
Speaker 2:You know in Britain education's free. The taxpayer pays for it, but I mean it's not. You know parents, unless they're in private school, don't have to pay for it. You know healthcare's free. You know there is poverty and it's definitely relative poverty and it's not necessarily like third world, but people are queuing at food banks. If there are an extreme levels of poverty, parents may have to go without meals to make sure their children can eat and the cost of living has gone through the roof. So I bring that as a bit of a background. So when you've got individuals that maybe we're working with and they've got those kind of challenges that's going on in their world and sometimes we can be working with them and things can be going well, and some of it is about keeping them in school is going well, you know, sadly for us as an organization.
Speaker 2:Just this week we've had two murders of individuals that we have known, one of which we worked with, and they both happened on the same day in different parts of London and you know it's been quite emotive for us as a team, you know. Could you always reflect and say did we do everything we could? And you know, I think, what we are aware of for the two individuals, they weren't necessarily heavily involved in criminal activity and so sometimes people can come out of that lifestyle. But it doesn't mean others have, because sometimes your history follows you, you know, and London's, as much as it's deemed as a big city it's London's not that big, you know, and so, moving around, all it takes is a year later, two years later, you can find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time and something happens. So there are individuals, and that's an extreme scenario where it causes you to reflect and reminds you of why we do what we do.
Speaker 2:The other side to that is, you know, you can get individuals that have been that we've taken to court, gone to court with them, and so much has looked at the young person's commitment to us and us to them, and for that reason didn't give them a custodial sentence. Because it will look, you know you're here working with an organization and not everybody that turns up at court has an organization like spark to life supporting them and would go into court and give a character reference for our own sake. And if you could be supporting that individual, then three months later they commit a crime again in the back in court. You kind of got egg on your face and they will then get a custodial sentence and you kind of think you take a risk. But for me it's a calculated risk Because more often than not there is a narrative that can be more negative and positive towards these young people.
Speaker 2:So we call it the false negative and the risk is look, it's better that I try and fail than to not try at all, and we have more successes than we do failures. But we accept that at times we won't be able to help everybody. But it's better that we try and we put forward that we are willing to support this young person. They're engaging with us, we feel that they have positive future and we're going to create opportunities for them, and they have said to us that they have an intention to stay away from crime. If a week later, two weeks later, a month later or two months later, they get arrested for crime. We can't have that personal. We've done everything that we can.
Speaker 2:And again for them, they have to learn. And you find, if they're at that age under 25, where their emotional intelligence is still developing and they may come to a point and I found this that when they start getting 22, 23, 24, that they look back and Then they begin to think would have, should have, could I Let go through the system, they come out and say I'm not going to do that again. Oh, they understand love, they understand. And some of them come back and some of them even work for your organization. They've had people who have worked with it and now, you know, reformed, working for spark to life, that were once our service users or were once heavily involved in criminal activity before we knew them. But the lives have turned around and many of them are in their 20s. So for that we give God thanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing. That is amazing and an important part of the journey. So, as we go towards the end of this episode, there's one questions I really want to know. You would have worked with many, many young people who have been involved in Crime and violence, whether in the community or within the criminal justice system. What are some signs you look for to so kind of inform you that somebody has perhaps changed their life and are serious about that change?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it comes down to. I think definitely the belief. Belief is a powerful thing and sometimes that's that's strongly rooted in faith. So now my own personal journey. What would have been evidential to my family and to a lot of my close friends at the time when I was going through the criminal justice system, um was I became a Christian and so my belief system, my worldview completely shifted, my moral compass shifted. You know what I thought was okay, even though, because you've got to understand to some degree as well that the reason worldview is important is because we operate, especially in the west, here, with what we would see, as you know, a western ideology, and this is right and this is wrong.
Speaker 2:Often, when people are heavily involved in criminal activity and can be quite resistant To what they would see as a western ideology, they would have what we would call a code of honor, not a code of law. So we present a code of law because we think that law rules. But the issue for me is, if I'm in criminal activity and involved in criminal activity, it's not the law that I'm scared of per se Is actually what gives me credibility is my honor and my reputation and my name. That's my currency. So when somebody has that currency, that currency is based on a worldview that's based on a belief system that will then determine what I see is right and wrong.
Speaker 2:Whether it's smoking drugs, selling drugs, doing commercial burglaries, they can claim their insurance. You know, I'm not Going to attack People within the community that are not involved in my world, but people that are seen as my enemies. I will attack them and if they get in my way, sadly, I will use excessive violence. So it's kind of Justified in their thinking because if someone's after me, I'm going to be after them. If I can make money selling drugs, well, if I'm not going to sell it, someone else is going to sell it.
Speaker 2:And if I think the systems corrupt anyway Because they bring in the drugs in prisons or they allow the drugs to come into the country, or there's a few, you know, kind of Uh Ben officers, police officers that I'm aware of, and and all of these things will shake my worldview. So I think it's quite important to understand that. You know, one of the things that Really begins to bring about change is our belief system and and and how we would, you know, not operate under a code of law, but a code of honor. And sorry, joe, as you're asking that again, I completely forgot what was the question again, because I, that's fine.
Speaker 1:So the question really was what are signs of change? So, as persons, external persons who are looking on and, you know, as members of society, somebody you know, who are expected to perhaps provide employment, open their schools, you know, provide the different opportunities, how can we Know that somebody has changed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry, that's a good point. Yeah, so definitely is around belief system and how they see the world. And I make a difference between a reformed offender and a transformed offender. So reformed offender and there's somebody who's no longer doing crime, but it doesn't mean their mind is transformed, but it doesn't mean their mind is transformed. And a transformed and the renewing of the mind is more about where I used to see the system as an enemy, or I used to see the police as an enemy. I'm not saying I'm naive enough to think that they're all perfect, but I don't see them now as my enemy. I realize my biggest enemy is myself, first and foremost, and so my mindset has changed, not just my behavior. That's a big thing. I think.
Speaker 2:Also, if somebody is intentionally looking for work and they find themselves in a job, that's a clear sign that somebody is moving away from certain lifestyles and moving into something positive.
Speaker 2:Um, I think settling down in a relationship Could often be a good sign For somebody who's saying whereas before, um, they very much lived for me myself and I, now they're thinking about their partner or their family, as in having a child, and there's a great responsibility now to feel that they have to provide.
Speaker 2:So I think for me these are kind of outward signs of Well-view their belief system, relationships, um, ie partner relationships, getting a job, even volunteering, someone who's willing to volunteer, and I think he's giving people those opportunities because what they're trying to say is I want to occupy my time, I need to build my, build my skillset and I need to get a level of credibility so that if I do go for a job I can at least say look, I've volunteered here for the last three months doing a, b, c and d.
Speaker 2:They conv out for my character. So sometimes creating opportunities for people to volunteer so that for them it's not just about money, it's about their long term people studying, going into do studying again, is another clear sign that somebody's beginning to shift from a lifestyle of criminal activity, um Offending behavior, to something that's now more positive and constructive. So for me they are the key things and and I think one of the other things as well, which can be sometimes quite obvious, although I think we just need to hold the tension on that is who they're hanging around you know, and and the areas I think we need to hold attention on.
Speaker 2:That is because it can take a while sometimes, even if somebody was involved with a certain group. They get a job If that's their support network, rightly or wrongly. They won't just necessarily cut off straight away. It may take a while, and not to be too quickly and too quick to judge, because they can sometimes actually be a positive role model to those they're hanging around to try and evidence actually look, I'm doing it, maybe you can do it. But again, it's having a trusted adult with that person, um, to help them journey so that they don't fall back into bad habits.
Speaker 1:So in terms of work, because I did another episode with a formerly incarcerated person and he was saying you know, yes, some persons who are involved in criminal activity they work. So you know, how do we kind of Navigate that perspective?
Speaker 2:Um, given that we know that that is somewhat of an or yeah, I think it's again, and there is a level of you know, validity in that. I suppose some of it is around for me and again, I'm not saying this is what people should do. It's about negotiating tactics. For some people, their cover story is their job, that's their cover story, and they're usually a lot more, um informed as a criminal for want of a better term because they know I need to work the system, so I need to be smart, um. But also, depending on the laws that you have, in what country and whoever they are, there's a great risk because not only can you lose your career, um, but also everything that you have got through your criminal means can be taken away from you, um, you know, especially if, for instance, it's been a bit of a cover story, you've got a car, you've got a house, you know you've got a house abroad for argument's sake, depending on how Larger player you are in that, in, in, in that sphere.
Speaker 2:So I do feel you know there are going to be individuals like that and also, without throwing a spanner in the works, some of these individuals can be informers. So they're planted there, um, and you know they will have connections with the police, because it's like they're doing all this stuff, everyone else is getting caught, but they're not getting caught and you will get people that will turn because you know it's like, well, if you can't beat the system, let's join the system, you know, and and in some ways you will then become an informant to those Um, that will get everybody else, um, and so it's worth putting out there because that does exist, it does exist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does it. It does in. In Jamaica we have an informer for dead culture. So you know, when we hear informer it's like a trigger word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, but yeah, I mean, and I think, but even if somebody is working I suppose if I was aware and I was working with somebody who was working then it's about the risk and ultimately it's about money. And the sad thing is, you know, the love of money, not money. The love of money is the root of all evil. And I think if people love money so much, especially if they have children or family members, the child at the age of two isn't going to remember what trainers you bought for them. They're going to remember whether he was around, and that's the key thing. You know, sometimes there's this myth that I show my love by what I've bought or what I've given, but actually sometimes people, they just want you to be present.
Speaker 2:So I do feel that that in itself becomes a whole other conversation about what do we value? Do we value money, or do we value time? And what do the people around us that love us value? You know, and often it's well, have you got an exit strategy? Because how much money is enough money? Because if you're saying you're going to keep doing this until you get caught, it's only a matter of time then, until you get caught, and then you're going to end up incarcerated. So it has tried those conversations to say, well, look, what's the sense. Yeah, OK.
Speaker 2:So you're looking at how can people in civil society contribute to organizations like Sparks Life, practically to help reduce and or support young people, young adults that may be caught up in crime, etc. Is that fair enough? Synopsis? Yes, it is. Yeah, ok, I mean, I think every organization will be different in as much as we offer or we invite people to join voluntarily Sparks Life and get accredited as a community mentor, and then what we do is we assign them to young people within school and within our community that need support. Again, lower risk, universal and multiple needs, not the complex and the acute. So that's something that we do and I say that it may be that you are near an organization or charity that's in your area, that you can volunteer and that's practically given your time. What I would say is for those organizations or charities that are offering that, make sure that you treat your volunteers well, whether that's a volunteer contract, whether that's offering them supervision. I mean we go as far as offering clinical supervision. We pay for their DBS, we give them the training free, just stuff like that Was DBS.
Speaker 2:Sorry, it used to be called the I can't remember the exact name, but it's a barring service, something barring service which is to do with if you've got criminal record. The charity is aware of those criminal records so that we don't pair somebody with a criminal record. That's not appropriate. So it doesn't mean if you've got a criminal record, it's whether it's appropriate or not to work with children or young vulnerable adults. So it now allows us to be able to see who's suitable to be paired with young people. Basically and often the things that aren't suitable is this if somebody has a history of sexual offences and or physical you know, serious physical offences towards a minor or a vulnerable adult, there would be the things that someone would then be on the barring list. But within the UK you have to have a DBS. That is okay to work with children. You're not on the barring list. You can work with children. So we do that. We pay for people, but I can't remember what the D stands for. I know it stands for the DBS. So there's that.
Speaker 2:I think one of the other things as well is financially. There's some people that have access to wealth and they can support local grass root charities and they can write off on their taxes. Okay. So in regards to how I feel civil society as a whole can help young people, straight young adults, like I mentioned before, you know, giving people opportunities in volunteering is really helpful. And then I think I moved on to talk about even if somebody's in a position, especially if somebody is of wealth and I'm going to go a bit wider in a minute and they can contribute financially because they can write off on their taxes and not necessarily organizations that are so far removed that they can't have a relationship with in their local communities.
Speaker 2:I think is always helpful because when you look at youth violence specifically, one of the answers, especially here within the West, within the UK, it's called localized interventions. You're not looking, you're looking at community interventions that are multi agency approach to addressing these issues. So they call it place based. So place based intervention. I think that's really important. So the community working together, coming together, whether that school, hospital, police, jobs, you know, any social security or funds around social support, there's a kind of a communication that's happening within them and amongst them to address these issues. And I think us as workers, if we work in these issues, you know, an ideal way would be, especially if we want to retain our staff, whether it be volunteers or employees, and to think about things like clinical supervision. I think you know this work could be quite taxing, quite draining emotionally and mentally, and I think it's really important if we want to get the best out of our team, we need to see and look after our team. So clinical supervision, supervision generally, you know reflective practice where they've got space to reflect on what is working, what isn't, is really, really important.
Speaker 2:I think having individuals as well who have got lived experience, having a voice into some of the solutions, especially within the community. So, whether that's a youth independent advisory group or whether that's a parenting group of people that have got that lived experience and they've got a voice into some of the solutions. So you're building resilience in the community and you're building and you're empowering the community to find solutions for themselves. And I think sometimes you know money might be better well spent is, instead of getting workers to go into the community, we employ people in the community to deliver the services and I know that has to be kind of checked and made sure everything's done, you know, legally and appropriately. But nonetheless what you're doing is you're not only giving people work, you're also allowing them to fulfill maybe a passion or a need because they have the trust of the community. So, instead of parachuting people in that don't really understand the nuances or the intricacies of the community, maybe have one person like that, but they work with a team of individuals within the community that become part of the solution.
Speaker 2:So I think for me, when I look at the practicalities financially supporting volunteering definitely, and I think sometimes as well and looking at the support for staff, whether it's clinical supervision and supervision generally and reflective practice and continual personal development, I think there's individuals within our community that are skilled, that may not be able to be on the front line but they have a lot of knowledge and experience where they can come in and do some training, some sessions. But I think it's really important to not just have it theory based. It's got to be able to be assimilated into the context that these people are having to work in and hence, I think, having people that have got lived experience being a part of that conversation and not being overly prescriptive, because each community is different. I'm sure it's the same in Jamaica, for example, depending on the parish, depending on the needs in that area, et cetera. So I think that's really important and I think one of the key things that came from a spiritual point of view is praying.
Speaker 2:We will all have our different views on the power of prayer, but what I would say is, for those that are mindful of prayer, what I think it can offer a lot of people is assurances and comfort. But also, from one who believes in the power of prayer, what I think it can do is begin to shift and bring change in the community. So I don't think we can underestimate the importance of prayer, especially as Christian believers, for our community and in our community, and for some people that's very therapeutic if I'm putting a kind of humanistic term on it because what it's enabling people to do is exhale, to process and to positively speak over situations where they're finding it difficult. So you can even get individuals that may have a nominal kind of belief, but it can be quite therapeutic for them to be in a place of prayer. We're believing for the supernatural change, but for them it's actually a safe place and I think that's important as well for us to understand. I hope that answered the question, dr Joe.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's more than dead.
Speaker 2:For those that are in.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. It's more than dead. It was a very good answer to the question. So thank you so much, des, for joining me on Save For Tomorrow podcast and really sharing your experiences with your organization, spark to Live. Thank you for sharing about your own background and just your own transformation, because that's important, and also thank you for sharing just the practical strategies that we can use as members of civil society to participate in not just the fight against crime and violence, but in making our world and our society a safer, more peaceful and compassionate place. So, viewers, listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. Don't forget to like, share, comment and subscribe to our YouTube channel, save For Tomorrow. Thank you so much and have an awesome day. Bye.
